: the point I've been working with is that he needs to be punished more for not building enough tank or building enough dmg. right now two tank items is enough to make him near invincible and then 4 dmg items to be able to solo the fed riven and shaco.
Why? Garen's always been able to build few offensive items and still deal great damage, while spending the rest of his slots on defensive items. There's no point in changing how Garen is supposed to build just because players are whining about things which he's always done. His win rates have been dropping in Plat+; sitting at a 53.9% in Plat and a 51.9% in Diamond over the past seven days. As players learn how to deal with him, his win rate will drop. The current 'nerfs' which may or may not be going to live will drop him a little bit as well. Sure, he has a 55% overall, but that's factoring in lower ranks where players aren't the best at using the mechanics that Garen is weak against; such as kiting. Nerfing him currently would only appeal to the lower ranked players while making him generally weaker in higher ranked play.
: Garen still isn't fixed in the right way.
I don't think he'll be getting his durability or damage output nerfed any time soon; those are the main traits that Juggernauts (And Garen in general) are supposed to have. Hitting his mobility is a safe way to nerf him.
Rioter Comments
: Garen is so broken
This isn't anything new, y'know. Garen's always been infamous for being able to do absurd amounts of damage with little to no damage items; it's just now instead of early game he does it late game. His mid-game damage is roughly unchanged if not weaker than the old Garen's.
: [Discussion] Is this new Juggernaut rework suitable for Garen, Darius and Mordekaiser ?
Honestly, after playing Garen for a while on the PBE and on live, he _feels_ weaker than before. His early is just god awful, you can't really trade consistently anymore as your E in general is weaker than before, and it gets even weaker if there's a minion anywhere in the AoE while you're trading. The Silence duration on his Q is mostly the same in regards to your laning so I haven't had issues with it, W's Passive isn't really noticable during early game either, and the fact that if you get ganked red buff or any other CC will guarantee a death on you due to not having Tenacity on the active anymore. Mid-game Garen feels roughly the same as he did before the changes, but the nerfs to his Silence start to become apparent. It becomes difficult to stay on champions who are just quicker than you, or have mobility abilities. Also the lack of W's active tenacity makes you extremely easy to peel. Late game Garen actually feels a bit stronger than before in regards to his damage, but getting to enemies becomes so freaking difficult that you have to almost pull a Kha'Zix and just wait until someone is isolated to kill them. I really want to like the rework, but they've made the difficulty of getting to and staying on enemies not worth the increase of damage. I hope his Silence duration gets directly bumped to 2.0s or scales back to 2.5s (1.5/1.75/2.0/2.5/2.5), Courage gets CC reduction back in the form of scaling as well (10%/15%/20%/25%/30%), and that they find another way to try to balance Judgment which doesn't result in self-slows for trying to attack enemies (old one) or penalties for trying to attack multiple enemies (current one). I wish the old one where you just moved 20% slower when moving through units and that minions took 75% damage from Judgment was back; it was better than the current one. I love the idea of the rework, but all of these nerfs on his kit don't warrant slightly better Judgment damage or the uncontrollable "Villian" passive on Demacian Justice. EDIT: Oh, and the nerfed Decisive Strike active Movement Speed duration hasn't been all that noticable unless I'm in a situation where I NEED to run, but it irritates me that after I lose the Speed Boost I need to WAIT a whole nother second for the Empowered Auto Attack to go away for it to go on cooldown. Also his W's stacking mechanic needs to be looked at for ARAM; it's pretty much useless over there.
: Garen PBE Changelist and Feedback thread
Overall, I think he's much more healthy (And fun to play) than he was before. The only thing that worries me now is his laning becoming absolutely dreadful due to the weaker damage from Judgment early on, and the fact that Judgment can take damage hits if there happens to be any minions near you (Which happens often) when trading with it. Aside from that gripe everything else is really minor and are just things that'll take getting used to (i.e. 1.5s silence instead of 2.5s, loss of Active Tenacity on Courage making CC stop you harder than before, etc.) Thanks for the amazing work and I appreciate you listening to our feedback in a serious manner.
: Garen PBE Changelist and Feedback thread
Curious as to why it's so difficult to just leave Judgment without some form of penalty. Is it really that strong of a move when compared to some other absurd scaling champions? "(Added) Judgment now deals 25% reduced damage when hitting multiple units" is definitely better than the previous one which slowed you for even trying to attack other Champions (Made it extremely difficult to get full spins off) but the current one just hurts his AoE ability during teamfights making his teamfighting weaker than it currently is. Also I'm just wondering this, but with the 25% damage hit in effect, does Judgment even do more damage than it does live or is it weaker? I know it's probably stronger against Minions because he already did 75% damage to them; but what about champions?
: Garen PBE Changelist and Feedback thread
Going from Decisive Strike to Judgment will feel much more fluid now, which is a great thing. Also W sounds like it actually DOES something with only one point in the skill again, which is once again a great thing. I personally like the sound of being able to deal full damage to Super Minions so long as they're isolated, but I think this'll hurt his damage overall and laning where minions are pretty much always present. I think the live one is still a better solution, but I'll wait until I try it to reserve judgment. There's really only two things that get to me still. I feel like a 1.5 second Silence isn't really enough for Garen to get Judgment off on certain champions, and it ends up being an overall damage nerf if you fail to do so. Also the loss of Tenacity on Courage's Active is making it difficult to get to enemies that are kiting me with slows (Or other CC) which the live Garen could've managed to get to. Could the active Tenacity scale with Rank, instead of being removed all-together? Because having it removed pretty much forces Garen into choosing Merc Treads which isn't the best solution in every game. Also this is just me being curious, but why did Garen lose his Critical Strike damage on Judgment? Ghostblade (And IE rush if you were fed) were always superb items to build on him, but now most of the bonuses are wasted unfortunately. It always sucks to lose such core items when a gameplay update comes around. tl;dr Overall Garen sounds much better than he did on the PBE now than he did before, but the reduction in Silence time from Decisive Strike, loss of Tenacity on Courage's active, and loss of Critical Strike on Judgment have overall dropped his item build diversity which isn't a great thing. Would it be possible to have Judgment's damage toned down a bit in return for scaling Critical Strike chance (With Rank or Level), for him to also get scaling silence duration per rank back on Decisive Strike, and for him to get his Tenacity back on Courage's Active through scaling per rank? Like (10%/15%/20%/25%/30%)? I'd like to hear your thoughts on any of this.
: His overall stickiness should be lower, but his overall threat when on a target should be higher. Plus, he's probably just tankier overall, so he should last even longer in the thick of things.
He's not really tankier overall, actually. With the W nerf and item changes Garen lost roughly 70-100 armor and magic resist while gaining around 600 HP. (Depending on how you built him) He's pretty much the same, if not weaker due to having less tenacity and options in fights, in regards to his durability.
: @RiotRepertoir: Don't you think some of these changes and the intentions behind them are contrary to how many Garen players actually play and itemize the champion? Specifically, it seems like the ideas behind the changes are to go hand-in-hand with some of the new items, but those items are entirely unattractive for how many Garen players (including the top ranked Garen players across regions) itemize him. To highlight my point, and for quick reference, I throw a link up to MarineRevenge's ever popular Garen guide on Solomid: http://www.solomid.net/guide/view/43750-garen-build-guide-fighter-by-marinerevenge. Marine has been a bit less active lately but is often the top ranked Garen in NA. Notice a max of one tanky item and all damage and crit. You'll see similar builds, barring a bad game, with other top ranked players across regions. That is, many players build Garen with one or two (at max) tanky items and then the rest all damage. Standard core items being Black Cleaver, Youmuu's, Infinity Edge and Last Whisper. This is how I personally have had the most success with Garen and how I enjoy playing him (he's my main). - Removing crit from E removes the spike damage. More consistent, sure, but with high crit it seems better as is. - Changing the passive on W seems super cumbersome and not fun. I am definitely a player who completely veers away from farming mechanics akin to Nasus, the new Flesheater in Black Market Brawlers, Veigar, etc. It may be easier from a balance perspective, but it doesn't fit thematically and seems like a gameplay cop out to make numbers easier to balance. I am not looking forward to farming minions to get the value out of my W. Much more likely to entirely skip W altogether, especially with Tenacity removal. - Q silence reduction makes sense, as silences are CC in general are awful to be on the bad end of and being silenced while being spun over isn't cool. On board with that change. - Passive nerf makes sense. It's crazy and we all knew that was coming. Garen = Bush-Wolverine. - Ultimate: Not looking forward to a glowing sign of my opponent's head that reads "Avoid Garen at all costs." Garen isn't hard to get off you now as is and that's a major component in his low win rate. As team fights break out, seems like everyone has a way of escaping or knocking you up or back. Now they'll be all the more alert. Also, on the ultimate, was increasing his stickiness to the target considered over increasing the damage? I know the damage components are changing, but doing damage to his target hasn't really ever been the problem. Sticking with them and not having to burn flash for every late game kill definitely is. Would much rather trade in all the true damage (both on hit and ultimate) for some speed or stickiness to my target. Also, that'd tie a bit more in with the whole "perseverance" thing.
MarineRevenge uninstalled League of Legends after seeing the Garen changes. Let that soak in.
: If there's any part of the changelist that's too much, I'll be happy to reel it in. All data we have so far suggests that he's at least as powerful as Live with these changes, and likely quite a bit stronger.
> If there's any part of the changelist that's too much, I'll be happy to reel it in. It's all just too much, honestly. It's a ton of situational buffs and static nerfs.
: Garen PBE Changelist and Feedback thread
The original W used to be like how the PBE one is, but it was removed for the more favorable one that's currently on live because of how awkward it was during the game..Why reintroduce it?

Erijian

Level 30 (PBE)
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