: Rengar Changes Feedback Thread
As much as I like the idea of making Rengar useful again, his old Q (ie revert Q) is boring as heck, and it contributed to his 100-0 in 0.015s playstyle... all the other changes are nice, but if his Q's changing, why not make it something that stretches his burst window beyond 2 autos, or even adds skill expression (ie. increased/inherent leap distance, or some positioning benefit, etc)? I get that it's way late in the iteration process but there's a reason they dumped the old Q, and as much as I love the ult changes (I really do!) I'm not looking forward to the insta-burst coming back.
: Shen hits live
The tragic thing is that the 6.3 Xin Zhao changes are even WORSE, so the live forum's Shen complaints are being drowned out.
: Pretty sure EnvyDragon is saying that Jhin doesn't care for buildings and isn't meant to be a siege carry. He's meant not to be good at it, so he won't get compensation for being bad at it.
It was actually a reference to his RFC purchase line. "Rapid fire? Ha... where's the drama in that?" Also, yeah, he's good at so much other shit that "shooting a building" is a weakness it's probably fine for him to have.
: Jhins Tower Damage
Shooting a building? Ha... where's the drama in that?
: Shen Bug Report Thread
> [{quoted}](name=Riot MEMEMEMEME,realm=PBE,application-id=A4D2003433C8FCD715185A7264A9CC6FDFAD7FEF,discussion-id=ahm8lNsp,comment-id=,timestamp=2016-01-13T22:00:57.859+0000) >This thread is for Shen bugs only, please direct feedback to the thread dedicated to the Champions and Gameplay feedback board. Bug report: There is no Shen gameplay feedback thread. Repro steps: 1. Search for "Shen gameplay", looking for official posts. 2. No posts found. Expected behavior: There should be a stickied Shen Gameplay Feedback Thread. Alternate repro steps: 1. Click "Red Tracker." 2. Look for something with Shen in it other that this thread. 3. No such luck! Expected behavior: If there was an official Shen Gameplay Feedback Thread, it would show up in the Red Tracker. Please fix this, if Shen has no Shen Gameplay Feedback Thread by launch, he will be practically unplayable! Though it may make the designers of the Karma and Cassiopeia reworks happy to know that they are no longer responsible for the worst-received reworks in the game.
: [Jhin] - W applies effects as AoE when this ability can only hit one champion
It's AoE on minions. If it counted as single-target, you could pretty much build Death's Dance and heal to full health instantly on a minion wave.
: Two things I found in your post that I haven't seen anyone else realize seems to get: * the spirit line between Shen and his sword does not show up for the enemy, an arrow floats around Shen pointing toward his sword * his passive shield (which has some nice Bonus HP scaling) has an extremely low cooldown if ANY of your abilities affect allies OR enemies, even getting down to literally 0 seconds with no CDR so it's a pretty insane shield. You almost never have to wait 10 seconds, as you said, for that shield
Re: spirit line, I haven't actually seen Shen from the other side, but in either case it's still a massive shiny glowstick that looks incredibly impactful (even though it kind of isn't). People are gonna pay attention to it. Still, you have somewhat of a point. Re: the passive shield, it's up very frequently... but only if you use your abilities in combat. His E is an escape, his Q is used to reposition his pet rock, and his W only resets the cooldown if it hits an ALLY with that tiny little field. If you miss once or if you just use an ability for utility? Full 10-second cooldown. Which means I hope your team's willing to wait around before you initiate... and I hope they don't initiate on YOU in that period. Also? Pretty sure the passive isn't affected by CDR.
: I definitely agree with this. Shen's Q feels unrewarding, his passive doesn't ever feel significant, and he just generally never feels like he's doing anything protective. The one thing I do disagree with his that the percent health damage from his Q is right at home on a tank. Tanks should have a little built-in damage, because like the OP said, they need to provide threat, even if they're just building defense. That's why Sejuani has her % health flail damage, and Rammus converts armor into AD, and Nautilus does bonus damage while his shield is up, and so on and so forth. They can't win on their own, but you can't ignore them, either. Anyway all the rest is true. I frankly thought Shen's sword didn't follow him more closely because he wasn't finished yet before being pushed to the PBE.
Can we at least agree that _bonus attack speed_ has no place on a tank's kit? I understand that in theory you're going to catch an enemy with the sword, do 3 quick autoattacks, and do something like 21% of their max HP with bonus damage. In practice, catching the enemy is damn near impossible with his lack of mobility, the slow it provides is miniscule and incredibly situational (so you can't really expect to get all three attacks off before the buff wears off or before you overextend), and in a teamfight situation, _you are not the damage dealer._ Given the choice, I'd much rather have: -One attack that deals bonus %hp damage and applies a slow, snare, stun, or even a taunt. -Three attacks that reactivate your shield or reduce your cooldowns. -Three attacks that do some reduced measure of the above, but at 550 range or something. -Any number of attacks that make your sword follow your opponent briefly (possibly revealing them or applying weak CC/shred, or maybe applying his old Q heal). At any rate, the fact that he can't E directly into W (without HORRIBLE mispositioning on your opponent's part) is practically criminal. That synergy is just begging to exist. A way to extend the duration of W would be nice too. RE: the leash distance, I can't help but think its current ridiculous range is deliberate because it's been three patches and we've seen no change.
Rioter Comments
: Yeah, we saw this too, and it is now fixed up. Thanks for your report. And we do care! A good amount (trying for more) of the old Quinn bugs should be fixed up.
Is the autoattack audio one of them?
: Yeah, we saw this too, and it is now fixed up. Thanks for your report. And we do care! A good amount (trying for more) of the old Quinn bugs should be fixed up.
Is the autoattack audio one of them?
: Quinn PBE Feedback Thread
Okay. Having just played a few games of jungle Quinn (vs bots, mostly to get a feel for her clear and the new game environment), I have a few points of feedback. 1) New Harrier logic is weird as hell around jungle camps. Why doesn't he prioritize large monsters? Hell, why doesn't he even prioritize my autoattack target? 2) The Harrier mark itself feels really solid now. It gets applied more frequently, and it almost always pops when I feel it should. It's not as satisfying to land in terms of damage, though. I know this is because the marks are supposed to be way more frequent now, but it just doesn't have as much oomph as it used to... 3) Tag Team... I dunno. I feel like it costs far too much mana - the channel time and cancel on damage are already pretty big limiters. Skystrike doesn't feel like it matters anymore either - it doesn't deal enough damage to be noticeable. Have you tried any iterations where Skystrike only became available and/or increased in damage after traveling a certain distance in Tag Team? That way you could cut the mana cost a bit (you no longer have to worry about repeated casts) and give us back the high moment of Cruise Missile Quinn slamming into the enemy squishies. 4) The autoattack SFX are still misaligned. They NEED to start later in the animation, it indicates "attack complete" far too early and throws off anybody trying to orbwalk. **If you do not fix this, Quinn will never feel smooth to play. This should have been fixed before her release. Quinn players have been asking for this ever since. ADDRESS THIS. PLEASE.** 5) The new Q is really cool for waveclearing, and in jungle the cooldown reset gives me creativity in optimizing my clear. The execute damage doesn't feel very noticeable, however.
: Caitlyn Gameplay Update Feedback Megathread
When Cait places a trap over her limit, it destroys the most recent one rather than the oldest one. This isn't deliberate, is it? Also, the tooltip has the snare time and trap duration swapped... which, while hilarious, is misleading. "Traps last 2 seconds and snare the target for 90." Ahaaa.
: Custom Games Not Loading
It's happening for Co-op vs AI too. Someone actually left once the lobby froze (we got the "X has left the game" notifier) and the lobby didn't eject us. Had to close the client and restart it to actually enter the game.
: I've heard the thing about Quinn's Harrier AAs being easier to cancel, but I timed them again today and they seem to check out as being as fast as the normal basic attacks. Perhaps it has to do with the animation being different visually or the sound being different on the Harrier attack? Harrier itself is getting some logic changes that haven't been detailed yet, as I stuck to the higher level stuff for today.
Harrier changes are nice. I've played a few games of Jungle Quinn, and her first clear varies between "astounding success" if Valor marks the large monster every time and "you die to red" if Valor decides to be unhelpful. And the AAs being easier to cancel DEFINITELY has to do with the sound effect. Different champions have different animations, so for someone who hasn't mastered the champion's specific quirks (ie anyone who doesn't main her) the only indicator that it's safe to move without canceling the attack is the audio. Normal autoattacks play the sound slightly early. Harrier autoattacks play the sound WAY too early. Can you please either make the sound start later, or grab somebody from audio and make them modify it so the "visceral" part of the effect actually comes out when it's safe to move? People have been asking for this since launch and _nobody has ever responded._ Like as excited as I am for a champion who can mount up HotS style (particularly as a fan of Quinn's skirmishing pattern in the first place), this whole rework is completely unnecessary and if you turned the jank levels down to like, 3 or 4 at most (currently at an 8, where Release Syndra was 10), you'd see her play and success rate skyrocket. So I mean... go into the code and find the Jank value, and swap the number. It's obviously that easy, right? Right.
: Q only adds 160 base damage and increases in mana cost by up to 40. It's not that strong when you consider how slowly it casts, most of the time you can get 2-4 autos during a Q cast and they would do more damage. W just seems like a no brainer, get it down to 8 second CD and place it all around for 30 mana per cast and if you get engaged on by a melee it'll already out damage Q by being higher number and magic damage. The new trap mechanic requires you to be within 650-1300 range of the person in the trap in order to ever be a buff, and even then for someone who maxes W, the damage from W is better than the head shot would be in lane. You your trap is hit within 650 range you would auto anyways so you only gain 50% AD bonus from the change 80 base magic damage is higher than 50% of your AD during lane, let alone if you max traps first for the full 280 base damage. If the opponent is out of 1300 range when they hit the trap, they take 80-280 currently or 0 after the patch. I believe traps have a maximum of 3, and are not being changed in CD, only that they are charges. So you won't have more, in fact because of the CD nerf you will have less overall, it'll just make it easier for bad Caitlyn players to have more out at once.
> [{quoted}](name=ThePurpleKnight,realm=PBE,application-id=2EAF660193FA3B668D7234B3AEBB530C5AB7F651,discussion-id=K7Eg4dBQ,comment-id=00150000000000000000,timestamp=2015-10-29T05:42:18.079+0000) > > I believe traps have a maximum of 3, and are not being changed in CD, only that they are charges. So you won't have more, in fact because of the CD nerf you will have less overall, it'll just make it easier for bad Caitlyn players to have more out at once. Nope. > [{quoted}](name=CertainlyT,realm=PBE,application-id=2EAF660193FA3B668D7234B3AEBB530C5AB7F651,discussion-id=K7Eg4dBQ,comment-id=00030000,timestamp=2015-10-28T22:20:48.443+0000) > > Max traps are 3/3/4/4/5 by rank. Trap recharge time goes down substantially with rank (probably by too much!). Traps only last 90 seconds now. So by level 13 (if you max W second, which I expect you will with these changes) you'll be dropping 5 traps at a time. And almost every ammo-system ability has its recharge time reduced by CDR... so yes, you'll just have an assload of traps on the floor at all times.
: Smoke Screen on Live simply reduces enemy vision range by 50%. This means they can always see out of the Smoke Screen. It also reveals anyone who attacks them. Overall, it's diificult to judge who a Smoke Screened enemy can and cannot see. No longer! The spell was so much more powerful that with the slow, it felt like an auto-kill in too many situations. Crits increase the spread of the cone (currently by 50%). I am not sure whether this is right, but it looks great visually and strongly encourages getting up close and personal. The width of the spread is one of the things I'm most Interested in getting your feedback on.
> [{quoted}](name=CertainlyT,realm=PBE,application-id=2EAF660193FA3B668D7234B3AEBB530C5AB7F651,discussion-id=jnGRrEJW,comment-id=00250000,timestamp=2015-10-29T06:47:15.220+0000) > > Smoke Screen on Live simply reduces enemy vision range by 50%. This means they can always see out of the Smoke Screen. Wait, really? I literally never knew this. I thought it just cut your vision to nothing and could occasionally be broken by arbitrary things, or that every opponent I played against was cheating somehow. A complete vision shutdown is MUCH easier to play around, especially with the new short-range playstyle. Really excited to try it.
: It's only a buff to those who don't level them first, 280 base damage reduced by like 20% is still 230 base damage, where as the between 100-200 AD you'll have during lane, lets say 200 AD. You got 50% so that's 100 physical damage (now I don't know if auto attack damage is also applied but lets assume both scenarios) 300 - around 30% = 210, which means that assuming the headshot is auto attack + 50% you're still doing 40 less damage at around level 9. Now lets say it's not counting auto damage since you don't specify so I don't actually know. That'd be a measly 70 damage as opposed to the traps current 230. You have to take into account how bad Caitlyns other abilities actually are and how much more worth it, it is to level trap first. As well as how little magic resist an Adc is going to have during laning phase. In the late game assuming this does auto attack damage + headshot there is potential for this new one to do more damage, but it still requires you to be nearby, so no using it against junglers in their jungle and no damage while dead. "Oh Caitlyn died? These traps have become incredibly worthless, lets disarm them for free. " I honestly never thought you guys would give Caitlyn a worse ability than Piltover Peacemaker but I was wrong, I was so so wrong, this is by far worse than the slowness of Piltover Peacemaker, and even though you're nerfing Piltover Peacemaker, I still think it'd be better than these traps, because at least Piltover Peace Maker might hit somebody and can be used as they run out of auto attack range. I can get 2-4 autos, depending on Attack Speed during a Piltover Peacemakers cast making it such an awful skill for a champion like Caitlyn, and yet she's gonna have a worse ability. Anytime the new traps would actually be more useful than the old traps, a Caitlyn would just use Ace in the Hole and get the kill. It's clear you guys want to get rid of AP Caitlyn, but it'd be better to just remove the scaling, there is no reason to remove the base damage. This is Caitlyns best ability and I probably wouldn't even put it in a "Top 50 non ultimate abilities in League of Legends" Most people probably wouldn't even put it in a top 100.
1) Why would you ever max W first? It weakens Cait's incredible auto+Q poke, which is what makes her so oppressive in a lot of lanes. 2) Cait's auto range is effectively doubled for the "free" headshot vs trapped targets. This, combined with the increased damage to first target on Q, actually makes her Auto+Q poke STRONGER and SAFER than its current iteration if you use it against a target who walks into a trap. 3) You are getting more traps more frequently. In teamfights, that means you are a marksman who litters the battlefield with snares. Either every single enemy champion avoids up to FIVE traps, or somebody stumbles into one, gets snared during teamfight prep, and has a very, very bad time. When that happens, a headshot is the least of their worries.
: What specifically about her auto attacks?
1) The autoattack animation seems to take longer to actually go off than the visuals and audio would imply. I've been able to cancel an autoattack by moving AFTER the recoil animation begins. This is significant on her normal autoattacks. This is nearly insurmountable on her Harrier autoattacks. 2) Harrier as an autoattack modifier is janky as hell. If the mark goes down on a target while my arrow is in the air, it should pop the mark. I shouldn't have to wait as much as a full second early-game for my next attack to go off - too much can happen in that timeframe, particularly with Quinn's low attack range. I've said it before and I'll say it again: if Live Quinn got enough QoL buffs that she ceased to feel janky, she would be considered OP. As it stands, her unpopularity mostly stems from how unreliable she is. If you rework her without fixing her bloody autoattacks nothing will change.


Level 30 (PBE)
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