Rioter Comments
Rioter Comments
: Discussion - Sejuani's New Passive
With W2 applying frost **and** slowing, you should have enough tools to proc Icebreaker as is
: Sejuani Feedback Thread
Most recent patches have put her in a good spot. I feel like I don't need my ultimate to skirmish, I feel like when I'm ahead I can carry a game, and while I only have Sheen items to fall back to for damage it feels okay. I haven't paid much attention to cosmetics (skins), but, gameplay wise, I like most of this. I think my only remaining complaint, is the point-and-click E still does feel a bit... sometimes difficult to use in fights, when it shouldn't be. Are there any other options we can explore here? I understand the full AoE E used it on people you didn't intend to, and that doesn't need to come back, but there must be other possible mechanics we haven't looked at yet to fix this. It's not awful enough that it's unplayable, of course, but it feels like it could be a bit more intuitive.
: I've actually been debating keystones for a bit now, so I'll try that out. One of my main problems with Sej (toplane, anyway) was her lower mana pool, so I'll certainly try it out. Out of curiosity, what runes are you running and why?
I wouldn't fault anyone for running Courage, but I think Grasp encourages you to remain in the thick of things longer, which I think is the right call. Lane runes vs AD Marks - Precision Seals - HP/lvl Glyphs - 6 Flat CDR, 3 Scaling CDR Quints - Armor Lane runes vs AP Marks - Precision Seals - HP/lvl Glyphs - Flat MR Quints - I think I have 2 Flat CDR and 1 Scaling CDR, but I dunno if that's right. Some armor is probably fine here too, attack speed is also fine. Jungle runes Marks - I've been playing with Precision and Attack Speed, both seem fine for the jobs they do. Attack speed is probably correct, but I'm kind of greedy, so I'll take precision sometimes. Seals - HP/lvl Glyphs - 6 Flat CDR, 3 Scaling CDR (I might change this depending on my build to Scaling MR) Quints - Armor You'll notice no damage runes other than precision, which helps your mixed damage. Just survive, build health, and you'll do fine. I think getting 40% cdr is important, but currently my core build involves both Iceborn/Triforce (20) and an MR item (10), and I might add Warmogs into that mix for another 10 which will cap me. If I do make that switch, I'll dump my CDR glyphs for Scaling MR, and the CDR quints for probably attack speed. I still have a love-hate for attack speed, I dunno how I feel about them yet.
: > Disagree with most of the rest Expected, most of these are incomplete thoughts. > W1+2 are in a good spot now The ability itself is in a good spot, yes, but I'm speaking more about how she interacts with items and the rest of her kit. Number-wise, it's fine imo. The fact that you can't activate anything other than Q during W's cast time has frustrated me often enough to prompt me to mention it. It feels clunky in conjunction with items that enhance auto attacks (Sheen), active items of any sort (Randuins, Gargoyle, Tiamat items, etc.) can't be used until the cast time is finished, which with certain actives can really screw you, and if you really need to cast your E or R, you're boned. I'd be happy with most anything that fixes these issues. Aside from E's boring activation mechanic (though everything building up to the actual activation and afterwards is good, so I'm inclined to forgive it), this is the biggest sore spot with Sejuani for me, and it's the best solution I could come up with :) > W does not need an AD ratio I completely agree, I was just saying it feels a little weird the way it works now. If it were to gain an AD ratio (which makes much more sense than an AP ratio, seeing as it deals physical damage), I fear that AD Sejuani would become the norm, and I suspect that's the reason why there's not one there to begin with. If anything were to get an AP ratio, I would like it to be Icebreaker.
I agree we're not left with a lot of item choices in terms of getting damage, but (while I don't agree with this) I think that may have been Rito's goal with these reworks. It's unfortunate, but she's got a lot of CC / farming tools, so I'm not totally put-off by it. I've actually found good success with sheen items, either Iceborn or Trinity. I built Trinity when I was snowballing, actually amped my damage hard. Q -> Auto, W -> Auto, E -> Auto, they all feel pretty okay, it's only on-hits like titanic / wit's end / etc that feel bad because we only auto in short sports, not all of the time. I take a sheen item along with Grasp of the Undying, and it feels like I can at least contribute a bit to damage numbers. But yeah, E into Sheen + Passive + Grasp procs, try that out. Trinity if you're snowballing and/or need bigger damage, Iceborn if you want the HUGE slow it provides with the bonus armor from your Passive.
: > Hitbox: 160 ->145 (Spell was cheating, reduced to match indicator) Was wondering about that, it seemed like it was being a little generous. Only reasonable suggestions I really have left are thus: Could we use the old boar attack animations for Icebreaker? The ones Sejuani used to use while her W was active. It may make Bristle feel a little more involved, and makes the AA "reset" more plausible (Bristle's ready to pounce). E, as well, could throw an Axe instead of some blue cloud, fitting in with her tribe's emblem. This would require a little more attention from the Art team than the former, and I doubt they're free. --- Aside from that, It's probably about as good as it's going to get for a time. My wishlist for the character: * W1 and W2 become separate casts. The primary purpose of this is to alleviate the "lockout" period the spell creates. It's immensely frustrating to be unable to activate items, E, and R during the cast time, despite how brief it is. Additionally, Sheen and Tiamat items are rather difficult to apply effectively due to this ability, when they really should be ideal choices on her. * E targeting the nearest available unit, rather than requiring you to target someone. Often, there's only one or two targets at a time that Permafrost can be activated on, and in the case of two or more, they now have the ability to body-block for one another based on their positioning. * AD ratio on W. I kinda understand why this isn't a thing already (she's a tank, not a fighter), but it feels really weird to build AD (Black Cleaver/Titanic Hydra) and not increase the damage of this ability with it, even if ever so slightly. * "Warband" (E's passive) really feels like it should switch places with Icebreaker (I also feel it should allow movement through units Sejuani and nearby melee characters). I know you can't actually do anything with Frost stacks until you have E, and that's probably why it's not there to begin with, but this is only really a problem in the first 2 or 3 levels. Additionally, moving Icebreaker to an active ability slot gives the player the option to opt into increasing it's damage when they choose to do so.
I agree with the boar attack animation on passive, I think that would actually be so goddamn cool. Whenever you freeze someone bristle just noms them. Amazing! Disagree with most of the rest, W1+2 are in a good spot now, W does not need an AD ratio (if anything an AP ratio to give back some sort of usefulness to AP runes and/or builds)
: Did some iterations over the weekend to cut down on the number of forced mechanics that point to jungle. (Even though we want her to jungle, it probably can be done a bit more elegantly than having multiple jungle only interactions) **Compared to the old '4/23' changelist** Passve Icebreaker now always deals 400 damage vs monsters instead of max 400 W W1 knocks minions and monsters back W no longer deals bonus damage to monsters E No longer has reduced cd vs monsters Limits the number of jungle specific interactions to 1 (Icebreaker damage, which was already there anyway). I'm pretty confident these changes make her jungle significantly safer, would love feedback from less skilled jungles if such people exist here :p **Full 4/23 Changelist** Passive Frost Armor no longer broken by minions or small monsters Icebreker Damage: 15/20/25% -> 10/15/20% Icebreaker Damage vs monsters: max 400 -> always 400 W No longer self slows, not worth W1 now knocks back minions and monsters CD: 7/6.5/6/5.5/5 -> 9/8/7/6/5 1st hit Damage: 12/19/26/33/40 (+0.01HP) -> 30/35/40/45/50 (+0.02HP) 2nd hit Damage: 48/76/104/132/160 (+0.04HP) -> 40/80/120/160/200 (+0.05HP) Bonus damage to monsters: 20% -> 0%
Notes from the recent changes: Passive (frost armor)- The armor/MR passive not being hit on monsters makes krugs uniquely easier after the first. Not a bug or anything, just worth noting. W changes - the knockback makes farming much less "awkward". even if i spam right click on a monster, im not weirdly just sitting around it waiting for cast to end. nice touch! I like the extra damage to W taken from Passive as well. Makes putting points into it feel like it actually does something now. The W slow also feels much better A, laning to set up yourself / jungler for ganks, B for playmaking. You're able to flash while W is casting to apply slow, which could lead to the kill. Love it. Sidenote - With the knockback on her W Sejuani now has 2 ways to cancel monster autoattacks (W and Q). It's a nice "mastery" mechanic, that helps with dealing with jungle monster DPS in the early game. Again, not a bug, but it's a nice touch if you figure out how to abuse it. I don't know if our current numbers are correct (overtuned? balanced? undertuned?), but in terms of mechanics I think she's in a great spot!
: 4/21 Passive CD 15 -> 9 No longer scales down with movement Now ignores minions at 7 and non epic monsters at 14 (a la Garen) W 2nd hit places a brief slow on enemies it hits, Sejuani is also slightly slowed when she is attacking (mostly to add the feel of weight, feedback here would be very appreciated) W radius larger Fixed a bug that caused Sejuani to move into the target when she right clicks them while casting W
Love both of these!! Can't wait to run em! PBE will have to wait until after Vancouver, but, thanks for the updates Sol
: Actually, Taric's E is is only ability without a cast time, which means that, if he can, he most certainly wants to AA during it for his passive. He simply doesn't have the luxury of doing so most of the time.
I mean, you're right in that he wants to auto still, but his reward for lining up his skillshot is a hard CC, so that's his main focus. Ours is either farming, or just trying to do damage and stack up Frost, no other reward for landing our skills. It's more awkward.
: The "do more damage" option is now magic pen, since Icebreaker deals so much damage. You can proc it twice in quick succession with E > Proc > Ult > Proc as well. That's 50% max HP damage which is amplified a lot by pen. A mid/top lane build with Sorc Shoes / Guise / Void ought to be pretty powerful, so the option is still there.
It's already been pointed out that about 50% of her damage output is physical, 50% magical. Magic pen was a fine option, but it only affecting half of her damage doesn't make it worth building over survivability items. Unless your comp has absolutely zero other magic damage, tank items will be more effective. Sorc shoes are situational, but she has almost no AP scalings left anymore. Never buy void, and Liandry's is a SUPER situation item.
: 4/20 Minor changes W should be easier to hit, especially in the jungle Casting E resets autoattack timer Things being looked at for hopefully 4/21 Early jungle clear W not feeling impactful enough
Bigger W feels a bit better. E autoattack timer feels... okay for jungle farming? I mean it's not hurting anything, but it doesn't make a lot of sense for a ranged point-and-click to have an auto-reset
: Sejuani Feedback Thread
Solcrushed, I had a larger thread of my views on it, I'll post a quick TL;DR of the suggestions I had in there for visibility. Link to thread - Passive Resistances - Useability feelsbad in the jungle, even getting the first bit of armor while taking a camp is nice, it just takes too long to come back. Buff from 15s @ lvl1 to 10s would help, even if you need to nerf values. Passive Bigauto - I like it! Keep it, if we can stack frost easier. Q - Fine, but would benefit from stacking Frost W - Clunky, not autoing during cast makes farming awkward, and puts us in a weird spot of "build AS for when W is on CD, or build CD to not care about AS?". I'd remove the sweep portion of the cast entirely, keep the second portion (flail through minions), then let us keep autoing. Generally speaking, having a side-sweep to apply frost stacks won't be needed much anyway, we're looking to frost one target, use E, then move on. E (stacking passive) - Being in one game with a full ranged team was enough to let me say, please give us other ways to stack this passive that isn't so team-reliant, or let ranged champions help us at reduced effectiveness. E (point-and-click) - Feels almost "slow" to use. When I get those stacks, I want to press E and stun someone. Make casting as it used to be, applying to full-frosted targets in the area. R - The change is fine. I miss the old one, obviously, but I don't dislike the direction you took here. Overall - Having an item-based direction to push Sej is currently weird, other than just HP + Resist. AP is awful, AD is awful, Magic Pen is less effective with split damages, on-hits are bad with W holding you back. Sheen items are fine. I just no longer feel like I can tailor my builds / runes / item decisions per game other than "should I buy armor or MR first". We never had a good "you should go full damage" build, but there were situations where Liandry's or Titanic was viable into specific comps. I'm not saying "give us a ton of scaling", I'm saying, remove some of the barriers that force us into sub-optimal item decisions.
: You have to have our mouse ON the target AND they have to be in range. I dont know but I think Yasuo's Wind Wall can block it. Because if they are at max range when you click them you can see a projectile shoot out and hit them.
It can, I had it wind-walled the day it came out. I was confused at first haha
: I'm sorry to hear that, and if the E mechanisms are not your cup of tea you definitely would hate the new Sejuani :/ She was shifted because most of our tanks fit that same bill. We wanted to create diversity between our tanks instead of leaving them as AOE dot + teamfight winning ult. A separate point I saw on your linked post: Overreliance on ultimate is not an issue because spells need to have similar levels of power across the kit, it is an issue due to the nature of ultimates as high cooldown abilities. Having too much budget in a character's ultimate leads to the character being near useless for the majority of the game when the ultimate is unavailable.
I actually like the new way of having E spammable but only frosting one target... I don't like the point and click nature of it though. Generally speaking, getting 4 frost off on more than 1 target at a time is a rare thing, thinking purely about proper target selection and how many melee characters in a game will actually auto consistantly. What I'd like to see here is keeping the existing E functionality / spammability, but make it the old style of casting it. AoE auto-cast. Getting your 4th stack off to have someone go out of vision FeelsBadMan, and frosting someone over walls / out of vision is something that's been a fun playmaker for Sej throughout the years. Or, flashing into approx range to E.
: Do you find Taric E clunky as well? This was a worry I had with the W, where the targeting paradigm is a relatively foreign one. It probably is the freedom of movement you have while you are swinging the W2. I wanted to maintain complete freedom of movement while casting W but it definitely takes a hit in making the spell feel less weighty. Tell me if it starts growing on you with plays or it remains foreign.
Taric E isn't a good comparison here. Taric uses it to line up hard CC in lane, we use it to apply 2 out of 4 frost stacks, and, primarily, to farm. Taric doesn't want to autoattack while he's lining up, we definitely do.
: It was not the goal, although we do want to discourage tanks from oneshot bursting people (like AP Malphite or Amumu) even if they build offensive. Sejuani really doesn't go there though. Do you want Sejuani to have a way to build offensively, or do you specifically want AP Sejuani?
While I liked having the full AP Pig as an option, I'm fine losing it, but it very much feels like we don't have a solid "do more damage" option if you have a team of tanks and want to amp a little. Iceborn seems core, so a sheen item is sort of there, but I mean things like Titanic, Liandry's, Wits End... etc. They all sort of "had a place" in her build if you really needed that type of damage, as where now it feels there's less synergy with any of these items. Awful AP scalings on abilities, mixed damage types, having W be spammy while locking your ability to auto means we don't want to focus on on-hit items... it's a pile of catch 22's, and not one way to say "yes, this item has good synergy, I should build it". Now it's just "stack HP, stack resist, hope team can do everything else for me"
: I share most of your thoughts with you, especially those on her new W. Additionally, is it just me or does her new E feel really unresponsive from time to time? Has any one else noticed this? Also I think it should not be point&click/press. If you believe stunning every target in range would be too powerful, how about you keep the targeting with the cursor but on top of stunning the targeted enemy every other marked unit in range is slowed at the same time. Just some minor opinions.
I felt that as well. Initiating, getting followed up, I'm mashing my E but it's awkward to get off. I'd like the old instant-AoE cast back
Rioter Comments
: Sejuani's new permafrost
This is a pretty cool idea. I played a game today with Vlad top, Orianna mid, Varus bot, and Thresh support. We won, but those teamfights were painful. I was pretty useless, just a meatshield more than an initiator / stunner.
: AP Sejuani?
AP is pretty damn useless on her now.. W has no scaling with it, and Q and E have very SMALL scaling with it. Her passive is her main source of damage, and has no scaling at all. AP Sej used to be strong as you had a full kit of AoE damage and meh scaling. The meh scaling worked because it hit 5 people. Now you can hit one person with R, one with E, one with passive. AP Sej is dead boys. The only thing I'd recommend if you want more damage is build tank with penetration items / runes. Abyssal is good, Sorc Shoes are okay if the rest of your team is AD, Precision runes are what I took today in lane and they felt fine.


Level 32 (PBE)
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