: When you notice that the post is 3 years old pre Devourer or Feral Flare.
tfw I think it was on the first page at the time for me. Must've been a slow three years. :^)
: I believe this is intentional. The "push multiple lanes with ult" works better if the maiden makes her own wave after all.
Yeah, then I think the tooltip is unclear about it.
: Yorick is very frustrant to play
Do a 45% CDR build to have his ultimate up as much as possible to improve your teamfight. Try to use the Maiden when she won't be focused down, like when your teams are both scrapping. She's half distraction, half vulnerable damage dealer. If you can't find success with that, cast her in a lane so she'll splitpush while your team is headed for an objective across the map. If you do it right you'll either get the objective, force a disadvantageous fight as one of them goes to stop her, or lose but take at least a tower. E isn't the easiest ability to land but I wouldn't say it's the hardest. Practice with it. Q heal is actually pretty good at low health. Heals for 164 at level 18, or 205 with Visage. By the way, buy a Visage. Don't go too tanky since your heal doesn't scale with health, and your ad scalings are great. Think of the flat heal as icing on the cake of lifesteal and/or health regen. Mist Walker health scales with Yorick health, but not by much. Mist Walkers having 100 more health from buying another 1k on Yorick isn't really worth it, and won't save them. Don't build no health, but don't spam it either. If AoE is really killing them, maybe try getting a Locket if it's magic damage. Otherwise, pray rito gives them more AoE reduction and don't rely on them. Don't rely on them -> more reason to build more damage so Yorick himself can be useful. Consider getting a Trinity Force.
: Yorick Rework (NERF)
Meanwhile Darius's Crippling Strike has the same ratio, a lower cooldown at max rank, and a 90% slow. While Crippling Strike doesn't have base damage, abilities of this type and power aren't unusual, especially considering it's Yorick's only ad scaling ability aside from minions.
: Visual Bug On New Summoners Rift!
Took an increase and resolution and a lot of zooming in, but I'm seeing it too. There's no lines, but the textures are slightly skewed. http://i.imgur.com/kswr5kN.png
: [Yorick] - Q Procs on Tower inconsistent
Christ man, took an entire game of purposefully trying to reproduce it for me to get it to happen. Nice find.
: [Yorick] - Mistwalkers don't apply heal from Deaths Dance
iirc Death's Dance is still a little picky sometimes, it doesn't seem to apply to _any_ physical damage, just spells or physical on-hits that normally wouldn't apply lifesteal, as well as anything that would apply lifesteal, of course Gunblade definitely works with Mist Walkers though. edit: No, it does apply, actually. Just tested it. You may have been mistaken because it actually heals for 5% of damage dealt, not 15%. Minions count as multi-hit/aoe, so their heal amount is reduced, but it's still there.
Rioter Comments
: Skaarl Courage Generation
This might be weird, but I think it'd be fun thematically if there were some mechanic where he got courage back from walking into brush every now and then, under the idea that he's looking for Skaarl. (Sometimes he finds him?)
: Kled might not NEED some of these things, but here are a few suggestions. 1. When Kled E's, he... can't go through very many walls. This is odd, especially because of the distance it takes him. Maybe it was a bug that I experienced, but it feels unnatural that he cant go over that many walls. 2. His dueling and tower-taking potential make him a great splitpusher. But... this sort of makes him not use his ult very often. Maybe if his ult effected minions, this may help. 3. I feel like Kled would be a FANTASTIC jungler if it weren't for the fact that it takes FOREVER to build up courage against jungle camps. I think something like +2 courage per AA on a large monster would really help him out. 4. Kled's dismounted laugh is REALLY FUNNY, if you haven't seen it spammed. This isn't useful, but I thought I'd share. :D
He can't joust over walls whatsoever. It functions more like Vayne's Q for example, it's a dash that's stopped by terrain. I think him not being able to joust over walls is meant to encourage him to play more all in. Otherwise he'd have a potent escape that just sent him over walls - and it also makes him very hard to escape for champions that _can_ hop over walls, and it also makes Kled easier to catch. Easier to play against overall, which is good. His mobility is very predictable in that way.
: Kled Gameplay Feedback Thread
He's a little confusing at times, mostly because of his health. There's some weird mechanics about it, for example, when he has Bloodthirster, the shield fills up before he heals Skaarl! It's pretty strange. That, and I'm not sure if Kled still has health regen when he's on Skaarl. No idea if bonus health regen applies to them both or not while mounted... and health regen doesn't display on the health bar when you're on Skaarl. There's also the thing where Hexdrinker's shield applies to Skaarl's health bar when it's activated, even when Kled is dismounted. Lots of funky stuff, don't know how intentional some of it is.
: Interesting. Have you compared the sound to Base MF? I feel like the sound on base is a lot louder.
If I had to put my finger on it, it's mostly that the sound sort of happens twice. The base MF sound is shorter and sharper, but the Pool Party sound almost echos to achieve the sound it has. I think that's what makes it feel that way for me. It might just be a matter of getting used to it, but it definitely bothered me in the game I played. edit: I played another time, and the sound definitely feels less abrasive than it did my first time around. I might've just been having a bad day or something. It isn't as jarring as I remember it. I remembered it being harsher, a much louder sound than what I'm hearing today. Sounds more like a dull thud than a castanet. I could have just been experiencing some kind of bug, since I was playing back when the minimap icon wasn't in place, etc. Maybe what I was hearing was the base passive sound and the pool party sound played together? I'm really not sure.
: PBE Bugs & Feedback Thread: Pool Party Miss Fortune!
I like the skin. My only problem with it is that the castanet sound effect on her passive is really jarring. It makes me feel like I'm being hit over the head.
: Jhin shoot over walls on defend site
All auto attacks can go through walls, so long as the target is in range. The closest exception is that ranged auto attacks can be blocked by Braum's Unbreakable or Yasuo's Wind Wall. If the problem with auto attacking the turret was range, make sure you didn't have Rapid Firecannon.
: [6/1] Item Feedback Rundown
Lucian's crit is a bit much it seems, yeah. Maybe if it were 120% like MF's ult, instead of 150%. Deathcap could be dropped in price to be the same as Trinity, maybe. They used to both be 3800.
: Kindred- My thoughts on her
I think the getting stacks to get other stacks mechanic is too complicated. They can easily just make the early jungle marks more frequent, or let them get a stack from killing red/blue or epic monsters before 6 stacks. Or, even let them get pre-6 stacks from killing siege minions. The current cooldown and duration of their W are carefully tuned so that it has roughly 100% uptime at max rank if you have 40% cdr. If it were to have a longer duration, it would have to have a longer cooldown to compensate. If you give them a 12 second duration at rank 5 their W would need to have a 20 second cooldown.
: Am i the only one noticing the net nerf of the W? in order to match the 200 AD damage of the current Illaoi W (To reach a nice round total of 10% at max), the oponent would have to have 3150HP, but that damage calculation is long before resistances.
[Which one is heavier after resistances, 10% of 3150, or 315 flat damage?](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qwr6_015ROo) That's right, 315 flat damage, because flat damage is more than percentage damage. Your numbers are a bit off though. Her W still does the normal 100% AD of an auto attack, so with 200 AD the % damage only has to do 115 damage. Even at rank 1 and 200 AD, the enemy would only have to have 1437.5 health for her to do the same damage as her old rank 5. It also scales far better with AD. The old ability did 10 additional damage per 100 AD, but the new one does 10 additional damage per 100 AD - per 500 max health. So, against a target with 2000 health, you get four times as much damage per AD on the spell itself. It's a strong buff, essentially making her W a one point wonder. Max her E second.
: Illaoi changes
Yeah, the slow and % health damage are good changes, but really her biggest hurdle is her cast times. Her ultimate having a knockup might be okay, but even just something as small as shortening the casting animation would do wonders.
: PBE Bugs & Feedback Thread: El Rayo Volibear!
Reads similarly to Hyena Warwick for me. http://i.imgur.com/ZSBBNEJ.png
: Still no 42 on wit's end.
42... there's just something about that number.
: What Earth Dragon Needs:
Wind Dragon is maybe a little undertuned, but that doesn't make it bad. It's just not a combat buff, it helps you reposition around the map, which is very valuable in high level play. Generally speaking, all of the buffs are different enough that there isn't one clearly superior one. Fire and Earth perhaps have the most overlap, both involving increasing your damage by a % amount. I'd say Earth Dragon is fine power-wise. It's an objective control buff. While it might not be a bad idea to make it be a flat amount or scale with max health to benefit tanks more than damage dealers, who already have Fire Dragon, scaling with damage rather than AD or AP at least benefits tanks insofar as their base damage gets amplified. It's also worth mentioning that it's true damage, which most benefits champions who don't have penetration, like most tanks.
: Definitely Not Dominion gold is WAY too slow
Another small part of the problem is that games just last like 12 minutes, or 20 tops.
Rioter Comments
: > [{quoted}](name=CrazyMLC,realm=PBE,application-id=2EAF660193FA3B668D7234B3AEBB530C5AB7F651,discussion-id=x9lnWast,comment-id=00050000,timestamp=2016-05-04T23:34:31.044+0000) > > Her Q gets 60 damage per rank and has a very low cooldown. It may not be as powerful in lane as her E because of worked ground, but it's definitely her best damage ability if she can keep casting the 5 stone version. Wouldn't call it a noob trap, personally. It can definitely be a noob trap if someone were to rely on that as the bread and butter skill of her kit during the laning phase. As eventually you get zoned out by your own Q if not careful with it as it can actually be a very punishing skill. And if your laning that can actually be quiet easy to zone yourself out of lane by virtue of the Worked Ground. I personally had better luck with a E-W combo for clearing minion waves than her Q. Late game sure the damage on her Q tends to rock as you have the entire map to work with and aren't just regulated to a lane to stay in for several minutes.
If you max her Q you wouldn't be using it for waveclear, unless you're desperate. It'd solely be for kill pressure.
: @ A very bad leona: I know exactly what you mean. Even today I had to stop myself from hitting her W in order to E. @ Soujiro24: Yeah. Her E-W combo is really good for damage. I personally dislike the shortness though as her kit feels _unsafe_ like if you posistion yourself to do this combo there is a good chance you might get jumped on. @CrazyMLC: Yeah her E can do a really good chunk of damage. Also yeah the Q from my experience is more of a 1-point wonder ability at best. Any more than 1 point and it more akin to a _noob trap_ ability. @ TaoS: Probably a lot of champions do. It feels almost like a muscle memory combo for a fighting game. --- Today I decided to find out how much CDR will allow you to reduce the Worked Ground. My results turned up the following; 0% CDR = 180 Seconds 5% CDR = 171 Seconds 10% CDR = 162 Seconds 15% CDR = 153 Seconds 20% CDR = 144 seconds 25% CDR = 135 seconds 30% CDR = 126 seconds 35% CDR = 117 seconds 40% CDR = 108 seconds 45% CDR = 99 seconds As you can see its duration is reduced by 9 seconds per every 5% CDR; 81 seconds shaved in total. Now that is all good but personally? I would like if they reversed the order. That way it makes jungle Taliyah not as awful. As small camps have a respawn timer of 100 seconds and Taliyah's Worked Ground effect would have a duration of 99 seconds. As currently she is described by some people I was watching as "Her jungle is dicey at best". While I am talking about her **Q (Threaded Volley)** and the Worked Ground from it: What if Worked Ground triggered her passive? Like: > Taliyah gains 20-40 % movement speed by running near walls or in **worked ground**. Only occurs out of combat. > > Level 1 - 18: 20/22/23/24/26/27/28/29/30/31/32/33/34/35/37/38/39/40% AND while in combat she would gain half of her passive's movespeed (10-20%) from Worked Ground as normal.
Her Q gets 60 damage per rank and has a very low cooldown. It may not be as powerful in lane as her E because of worked ground, but it's definitely her best damage ability if she can keep casting the 5 stone version. Wouldn't call it a noob trap, personally.
: Hi! This is the first big design decision I want to jump into, as I knew this call would be contentious. To set clear expectations up front: vector casting the W is pretty much off the table at this point. I've observed a good number (12+?) of games, we did very a series of very focused player labs here at Riot HQ, and I've had countless late night conversations about this, and my mind is made up. I'll try to explain my reasoning here! So let's start with a statement of facts and opinions: * Fact: Only two champions (Rumble and Viktor) currently use vector casting. * Fact: Both of these champions have extremely steep mastery curves (mastery curves represent how hard it is to learn a new champion; they graph average win rate over previous games played) * Opinion: Viktor's mastery curve is very out of place for a champion with a point and click ability and two generously sized AOE abilities that have very little nuance to them. This suggests to me that the bulk of Viktor's difficulty lives in just his E. * Opinion: Taliyah's Q, E, and R are harder to learn than Viktor's Q, W, and R. (I'm comparing the parts of their kits that aren't vector cast / potential vector cast) Right. So here's my thinking, again broken down into bullet points. * Vector cast asks you to think about holding a button down (left mouse for normal cast, E for quick cast). No other input (with the possible exception of channel while moving spells such as Xerath Q and Varus Q) in the game does this. * Vector cast asks you to think of both the origin point and the target point in terms of key-down and key-up. * Here's my internal monologue when I try to use Viktor: * "Okay, aim somewhere in range. Got it? Okay cool press the button. Move the mouse. Do you like where the arrow is? Okay, let go of the mouse now. Oh I'm dead because Zed jumped on me? Unlucky." * The next time I try to use it, it goes like this: * "Okay, fine, be quick about it this time. Press drag let go! Uh, that was nowhere near where I wanted to shoot the laser. Fuck. Okay again. Did you just tap the button? What are you doing, brain?" All joking aside, vector cast represents a cast paradigm unlike anything else in League. More importantly, vector cast forces you to input these awkward (OPINION) key presses as quickly as possible, because nothing starts happening until you do. Most likely you're standing still while trying to aim the end of the laser. So we end up with a hard to learn ability that puts a gun to your head and says "don't you DARE taking it slow and learning this ability properly! GO MOVE MOVE MOVE!" On top of that, because all vector casts are walk-into-range type spells (if you use them outside of their range, your character will walk up and cast the spell once you're in range assuming you've not overridden the cast command with a different command) you can never be sure if your cast has gone through. Simple spells get around that problem by having the player spam them. If I'm chasing on Nami and trying to Q in front of an enemy who's running from me, I'll be mashing Q where I want the bubble to go, with each subsequent input overriding the previous input. If I ever am in range of an input I liked in time, the cast will go through, otherwise it won't. Vector makes this super hard because you're asked with constantly inputting a precise directional cast over and over. Instead of "hover mouse where you want bubble to go and mash Q" it's "move mouse to desired start point, hold down e, move mouse so that desired end point lines up with where you want laser to go, let go of E, move mouse back to next desired start point, repeat". This is awkward as fuck. Here are the most salient differences in Taliyah's W cast: * Taliyah's W has an 0.85s delay which begins at W1, no matter what. You have 0.85s to input W2 (which is a massive amount of time in league), and how late you input W2 has no bearing on how quickly the spell will trigger. Take your time and aim well! * Taliyah's W is range-clamped. When you click outside of range, Taliyah will cast as far as possible in that direction, immediately. There's never any confusion on which state you're in. * Both inputs follow standard League patterns of "aim your mouse and tap the button". No holding down and dragging required. * You can move freely after the initial 0.25s cast time for putting W1 into the world. This means even as you decide where to toss them, you can dodge incoming skill shots. I've tested both versions extensively and decided to ship this version. If after reading this you still have concerns about things I may not have considered, please let's hear it!
I actually think Viktor's vector targeting is really easy. Though Rumble's kind of trips me up. I think it's the differences in how they're used for me, and less the input paradigm itself. It does get in the way sometimes to have it not cast immediately because you didn't let the button up fast enough, and you die in a situation where a few milliseconds would have gotten you the kill. I do think having it work the way it does for Taliyah is intuitive, though. Especially given the option to just knock them up instead of actually moving them around, which would be hard to achieve using vector input. But to be honest, I can't think of a situation where you wouldn't want to move them somewhere.
: Feedback on Taliyah
Formatting here is nice. Definitely agree with your passive suggestions. Making its animation active inside her worked ground would make it feel more relevant. That, and smoothing out the movement speed between walls is a good idea. People have been suggesting having her W be able to push her around for a while now, but the idea of letting her use it as a ramp is probably the best idea I've heard on the boards so far. If they played up the rock surfing aspect of her character a bit more, there's so much more interesting stuff they could do. Heck, she's even rock surfing in her splash. It should be a bigger part of her gameplay. Clarity on her worked ground would be really great. Some sort of advantage to her worked ground Q, as well.
: Her passive doesn't feel like a significant part of her kit. It only ever shows up when you're traveling and it feels a bit awkward to keep getting on and off the board while your moving to another wall. edit: I might as well post my thread. Yay for gloryhoring. http://boards.pbe.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/champions-gameplay-feedback/Tg4c8ZMV-feedback-on-taliyah
I agree. While her passive is really fun thematically, it's definitely mechanically dull. It doesn't really change how you play the game, it just helps you get from A to B a bit faster, assuming you walk next to a wall first.
: what kind of irks me about the worked ground is that there's a clear outline on the enemy Taliyah's ground so at times it feels like the enemy can see my ground better than Myself. It'd also be nice If i could tell how long a worked area has until it disappears- inihibitors have an animation that tells how long it has till it respawns, maybe something like that? Her q damage does seem too strong and a lot of people have been complaining about it being too weak on worked ground. Maybe there's a way to equalize these two parts? Maybe increasing both the damage reduction on multiple hits and he damage of single hits? Her e does do a lot of damage and and hitting the explosion damage is as easy as timing your w correctly. Also, It works decently against enemies with dashes but doesn't do much against enemies that can just run at you like voli or udyr. In my opinion, I like her personality, it's three-dimensional and relatable. The problem is that she hasn't figured out who she is, which is probably why she feels like she lacks a strong, definite personality. She's a teenager, raised by a society of survivors of an empire that founded upon slavery and wiped off the face of the earth for some mysterious reason, she was a prisoner, a soldier against her will, spent some time with Noxians and their way of life, ran away and stumbled upon yasuo who then begins to teach her his ways and ideologies, she's morally conflicted with using her powers to harm others, and now this slave empire from the past appears out of nowhere. In other words, she has no idea what the heck is going on, what's the wrong way, the right way. All she knows is that she needs answers.
So she's confused about who she is, and that's why I'm confused about who she is when I play her. I mean, that does make sense, just not entirely satisfying. But I can accept it. I'll admit I haven't read her story yet, so that could sort of be my fault. Definitely agree on all of your gameplay points there. Not sure how adding a timer indicator to her worked ground would work visually, but it'd be a nice thing to have. Thanks for the reply, by the way! EDIT: Maybe the worked ground could sort of fade out from the center to indicate how much time is left? Like, kind of a hole in the indicator slowly expanding from the center. That could work visually without being super jarring. Would work best if they also made it contrast more.
: > [{quoted}](name=CrazyMLC,realm=PBE,application-id=2EAF660193FA3B668D7234B3AEBB530C5AB7F651,discussion-id=AhzcAqEz,comment-id=000a0000,timestamp=2016-05-04T19:57:30.795+0000) > > The idea behind having worked ground's duration be shortened by CDR is that it means you can use the strong version of her Q in the same location sooner, effectively lowering its cooldown. Well lets say you or I built 10% CDR on her from a single item like say {{item:3158}} with what I am talking about. The duration of your Worked Ground would last for 117 seconds from 99 seconds. The current version would mean that for building {{item:3158}} you only reduced its duration down to 162 seconds from 180 seconds. Which is a 45 second difference between the two. As the duration of Worked Ground currently scales down with CDR at a rate of 9 seconds per 5% CDR. 0% CDR = 180 Seconds 5% CDR = 171 Seconds 10% CDR = 162 Seconds 15% CDR = 153 Seconds 20% CDR = 144 seconds 25% CDR = 135 seconds 30% CDR = 126 seconds 35% CDR = 117 seconds 40% CDR = 108 seconds 45% CDR = 99 seconds To get the same 117 second duration through a scale down method you need to build 35% CDR which would easily take up two item slots and 5 points in your cunning tree OR a few of your rune slots if you want to preserve your item slots for other things.
Why have it scale up though? That disincentives buying CDR. Sure, having more area of increased movement speed is nice, but her Q in worked ground does a third the damage. So, if its duration increased with CDR, then you'd be able to cast your more powerful Q less often? Most people just wouldn't get CDR then. If you want it to be low without having to buy CDR, then just say that. The solution to that would be to have it not scale with CDR at all, and have it be at a fixed, lower duration.
: --- I would like if her passive (Rock Surfing) worked with the Worked Ground effect from her Q (Threaded Volley). Such as: > Taliyah gains 20-40% movement speed by running near walls or on **worked ground**. This only occurs out of combat. > > Level 1 - 18: 20/22/23/24/26/27/28/29/30/31/32/33/34/35/37/38/39/40% This also wouldn't stack with the movement speed increase from Worked Ground while she is in combat. In combat: 10-20% movement speed increased while on Worked Ground which is equal to half the movement speed of her passive (Rock Surfing). Out of combat: 20-40% movement speed increased while on Worked Ground and her passive (Rock Surfing) is active. --- I've also felt like I was actively fighting my own Worked Ground effect from my Q (Threaded Volley). Perhaps have the duration of her Worked Ground effect **scale up** with CDR instead of **scaling down**. So instead of 180 seconds (0% CDR) to 99 seconds (45% CDR), reverse it. So it starts off as 99 seconds (0% CDR) but it goes up to 180 seconds (45% CDR). --- Next up I feel like the vertical cast length of her E (Unraveled Earth) is too short and could be lengthened while not increasing the number of traps created by it. Also would it be possible to have her E do increased damage to neutral camps?
The idea behind having worked ground's duration be shortened by CDR is that it means you can use the strong version of her Q in the same location sooner, effectively lowering its cooldown.
: Taliyah feedback thread
I've gained an eye for the worked ground indicator after my first time playing her. My only issue is that it can be hard to see them when you aren't inside of them, so you may walk into one while you aren't looking, and were planning to cast Q. Then it seems like a dud, and, oh, wait, you walked into one without noticing because it wasn't highlighted until you were already on it. Oops. For me personally that hasn't been all that prevalent, but I also took to the W casting paradigm immediately, without any hesitation, so maybe I'm just a quick learner with her. It's worth noting I live in LA and have a 25 ms ping on PBE, so it's also just a bit easier in that way. A problem I think a lot of us are having is that her Q is just really bad in worked ground. It'd be more forgiving if it also refunded half of the cooldown, or did slightly more damage. That way it'd be a useful tool for a little bit of poke, or csing in lane. (where you'll be choked in by areas of worked ground.) I also, personally, think her normal Q is way too strong. 420+120% AP damage on a 4 second cooldown is really difficult to deal with as an opponent, especially when she's kiting away and can just keep casting the strong version over and over, and especially so if she has Rylai's. Good luck catching her as a melee character without burning flash. And even if you do get close enough, you'll inevitably have to give in and dash over some traps to dream of catching her. When it works, and you can't dash without the risk of dying. But sometimes you can just dash anyway and kill her, without caring about the damage. And I think that's a part of why when Taliyah gets fed she spirals out of control, and when she gets behind, she's almost completely useless. So, when the threat of damage from using a dash isn't enough, she struggles (which leads to more struggling). Just a thought. Her passive is also a bit weak, but very very fun. It'd be more interesting if it could be used sooner after combat, or even if only taking damage disabled it. Being able to throw rocks at your enemies while surfing along a wall would be amazing. I also wish that when you transitioned between walls she'd sort of kickflip the stone surfboard in the air, instead of it just disappearing and reappearing at her feet. Does her E really potentially deal 720+160% AP damage if you land the cast, detonate four traps, and have the cone explode? The wiki seems to say so, but in practice it doesn't seem that ridiculously high. But, in general, I do get the feeling that her potential damage is a bit on the strong side. Another big problem I've been having with her is her character seems flat. From listening to her lines and the themes in her kit, she can't decide if she's a surfer girl, timid student, or staunch traditionalist. It all clashes for me, and I have a hard time buying into her character fantasy because of it. I wish she had a stronger personality, on the same level as Illaoi or Jhin. It would help if her joke actually told a joke. Right now, at least for me, it's just her getting wrapped up in her scarf. Is that intended? I posted a thread where I kind of splurged every last thought I had about her, if you want to read that. But it's basically just what I've said here. Thanks for reading, I hope this doesn't all fall into the "Bad feedback" category, since it's everything I've got.
: After playing against her a bit, I think her numbers are overtuned. A perfect combo at level 3 does 560+330% AP, or 1280+330% AP at max rank. 420+120% AP of that's just from her Q, which is on a 4 second cooldown, and the worked ground damage debuff doesn't mean much if she's kiting you. That's honestly just too high. She snowballs incredibly hard in many respects, especially if the person playing her knows what they're doing. I'd take some base damage off of her Q and move it to her W (which is a little harder to land and has less uptime, so the reward should be high just for landing it.) And then take off some scaling from her E. Her Q should also list the maximum damage it can inflict, sort of like Heimer's rockets do when you rank them. A ballpark gut feeling for me: Q: 60/75/90/105/120+40% AP damage for her Q, for a total of 180/225/270/315/360+120% AP Maybe make the worked ground duration scale down with rank as well, similar to the cooldown. (Since it's reduced by CDR, having it be tied to the actual cooldown would make a lot of sense.) Make the worked ground version more satisfying. Maybe make it fire two rocks instead of one, or make the one it fires more powerful, but single target. (for farming) An alternative nerf could be making its cooldown 10/9/8/7/6 with the current damage. Maybe make worked ground also refund half the cooldown in addition to half the mana cost, if you make it still only fire one. W: 80/120/160/200/240+40% AP would be better, in my opinion. While it's meant to be low on damage because it's meant to be combo'd with her E, the E combo is sometimes just too strong, considering the potent slow on E makes it much easier to land. It's perhaps too rewarding, given its reliability in capable hands. E: If I'm not mistaken, the current version can do 320/420/520/620/720+160% AP, which is ridiculous. While she might not have an ultimate for damage, her numbers shouldn't be this large to compensate, in my opinion. I'd lower the trap detonation damage from 50% to 25%, but maybe make it improve the slow or make the slow last outside of the cone for a few seconds. This would lower her potential damage from the spell, but gives her more crowd control all of the time. Another approach would be to just reduce the number of traps that can be sprung by an individual, to make the optimal damage amount more reliable. This would lower her optimal burst combo to 500/660/820/980/1140+280% AP from 560/740/920/1100/1280+330% AP, while preserving her waveclear from E. I think this brings her more in line with other mages, many of which don't even have the same amount of sustained damage output, crowd control, or map presence as her. I think you could go lower. Compensating buffs could be improving her worked ground Q, reducing the mana cost of it, making worked ground duration scale down with rank, making her traps have some sort of crowd control upon exploding. Just generally making her more reliable. Once the worked ground indicator is improved and other QoL changes are made, and people get more experience with Taliyah, I think changes similar in intent to these might be needed. TLDR: her damage is overboard, pls change rito
Additionally, I think it'd be interesting if her current passive were moved to her ultimate, and maybe given a passive that gave her tankiness scaling with AP, befitting someone who works with stone. Maybe damaging an enemy champion with a spell gives you a buff that reduces the damage you take from the next auto attack by an amount scaling with AP. It could even stack, expending all of the stacks to reduce one attack. That, combined with reducing her damage output, would make her more interesting I think. There was also a thread talking about letting her keep the surfing passive as long as she didn't take damage, meaning she could deal damage while the passive was going. Might be getting a bit carried away here.
: Taliyah Passive's Potential
That's a really good idea, something tells me it'd be pretty fun using her Q while surfing along a wall.
: Playing Taliyah... mission impossible
While it's not quite the same as playing with actual people, I'd recommend just playing a custom against some bots for the next few days. Bots don't get toxic. PBE will die down after those few days. Most of the toxic players will have had their fill of Taliyah, and it'll also be easier to get a game as her.
: Comprehensive Feedback on Taliyah
Her damage numbers are actually really high, under the right conditions. If I'm not mistaken, a perfect E cast alone can do 720+160% AP at max rank. Otherwise, I definitely agree. Her Q is really unsatisfying in worked ground, and she's kind of rough around the edges in general (like a rock?).
: [Madred's Bloodrazor] How I think Madred's Bloodrazor should be
I think Riot is specifically trying to get away from the damage stacking mechanic. I get the feeling that they've decided it isn't worth it. A passive that makes you heal off of on-hit effects is a good idea, though.
: Taliyah Feedback
After playing against her a bit, I think her numbers are overtuned. A perfect combo at level 3 does 560+330% AP, or 1280+330% AP at max rank. 420+120% AP of that's just from her Q, which is on a 4 second cooldown, and the worked ground damage debuff doesn't mean much if she's kiting you. That's honestly just too high. She snowballs incredibly hard in many respects, especially if the person playing her knows what they're doing. I'd take some base damage off of her Q and move it to her W (which is a little harder to land and has less uptime, so the reward should be high just for landing it.) And then take off some scaling from her E. Her Q should also list the maximum damage it can inflict, sort of like Heimer's rockets do when you rank them. A ballpark gut feeling for me: Q: 60/75/90/105/120+40% AP damage for her Q, for a total of 180/225/270/315/360+120% AP Maybe make the worked ground duration scale down with rank as well, similar to the cooldown. (Since it's reduced by CDR, having it be tied to the actual cooldown would make a lot of sense.) Make the worked ground version more satisfying. Maybe make it fire two rocks instead of one, or make the one it fires more powerful, but single target. (for farming) An alternative nerf could be making its cooldown 10/9/8/7/6 with the current damage. Maybe make worked ground also refund half the cooldown in addition to half the mana cost, if you make it still only fire one. W: 80/120/160/200/240+40% AP would be better, in my opinion. While it's meant to be low on damage because it's meant to be combo'd with her E, the E combo is sometimes just too strong, considering the potent slow on E makes it much easier to land. It's perhaps too rewarding, given its reliability in capable hands. E: If I'm not mistaken, the current version can do 320/420/520/620/720+160% AP, which is ridiculous. While she might not have an ultimate for damage, her numbers shouldn't be this large to compensate, in my opinion. I'd lower the trap detonation damage from 50% to 25%, but maybe make it improve the slow or make the slow last outside of the cone for a few seconds. This would lower her potential damage from the spell, but gives her more crowd control all of the time. Another approach would be to just reduce the number of traps that can be sprung by an individual, to make the optimal damage amount more reliable. This would lower her optimal burst combo to 500/660/820/980/1140+280% AP from 560/740/920/1100/1280+330% AP, while preserving her waveclear from E. I think this brings her more in line with other mages, many of which don't even have the same amount of sustained damage output, crowd control, or map presence as her. I think you could go lower. Compensating buffs could be improving her worked ground Q, reducing the mana cost of it, making worked ground duration scale down with rank, making her traps have some sort of crowd control upon exploding. Just generally making her more reliable. Once the worked ground indicator is improved and other QoL changes are made, and people get more experience with Taliyah, I think changes similar in intent to these might be needed. TLDR: her damage is overboard, pls change rito
: Why is Bloodrazor Physical Damage?
Get Runic if you really want magic damage. If you're on-hit, physical damage is perfectly fine, especially considering Fervor is already physical damage. Mixed damage can also be hard to itemize against if they aren't a tank - and those tank characters will feel the max health damage the most anyways. Additionally, all of the champions you listed are fine with physical damage when doing on-hit builds. Even Diana can make a Botrk or Trinity work if she commits to it. Tahm also does a fair bit of damage when building Titanic Hydra, which is of course a physical damage item. If you're really concerned about it, try hybrid pen runes. They're very gold efficient.
Rioter Comments
: Taliyah Passive Jump
I think it's intentional. It works visually, in my opinion. Maybe a _little_ bit clunky.
: New Guinsoo's Icon and FX
Yeah, even just recoloring the effect red/orange would go a long way. Fire particles would be icing on the cake.
: I've tried that incarnation out as well. The main issue with that is that mage patterns aren't typically sustained enough such that spell vamp can actually kick in. So typically the only people that benefit from that are tanky AP characters - but at that point they typically prefer just building more AP/Tank items (Rylai's) and the like - rather than Spell Vamp. So the item typically just has to swing towards an extreme level of Spell Vamp - and you get this weird kind of 'When Swain works, just surrender, because you literally can't kill him' - and most other sustain casters going 'Well.. I still kind of would prefer Deathcap since if they die, I don't take that much damage.'
Maybe that's more of a problem with Swain than Spell Vamp as a stat? Like you'd been saying, maybe his kit is one of the ones that just boils down to a stat-check than a skillful play. Alternatively, maybe Spell Vamp needs the same treatment percentage penetration gets. Instead of adding on top of each other, maybe it should stack multiplicatively, with diminishing returns. That way, you don't get up to so high of a level of Spell Vamp that you sustain in fights _too_ well. Have that interact with the innate Spell Vamp/healing on some abilities, or something. That way it's better on champions who don't already have sustain than those that do. (Maybe there's an easier way to execute that idea?) Maybe the AoE/multi-hit reduction on the Spell Vamp would need to be higher, to the point of being only 20% effective, or even having no effect at all. That would reduce its effectiveness on champions like Swain and Vladimir, who only have one or two single target spells. If tanks buying the item is a problem, maybe having it take up the big AP item slot Hourglass left behind would be a good idea. Just as an example: Xypheronomicon Lost Chapter + Fiendish Codex + Blasting Wand + 650 Gold = 3200 Total Gold +100 AP +400 Mana +10% CDR Unique Passive: Regain <champion level>% of premitigation damage dealt by single target spells as health. 50% effective on minions. This having only single target spells drain health creates interesting situations. Do you want to shove the wave and pressure your opponent, or sustain off of it? You can't do both, unless your single target spells have a very short cooldown, but you could just add a cooldown to the passive, in that case. It also applies when the buyer of the item is shoved under tower! Maybe their single target spell isn't on short enough of a cooldown to keep up with the tower, and they can't sustain off the minion wave at all, and just have to clear it with their AoE. That creates some interesting counterplay to the sustain, I think. Main issue is that some champions wouldn't be able to use this item's passive at all, like Aurelion Sol for example. So then you'd have a big AP item that a fair portion of mage champions can't even use. Still, I think an item like this could be fun to champions like Malzahar, Elise, Brand, Annie, Vel'koz, or other mages with a single target spell or two. Vlad and Swain could benefit from it, but definitely not as much as actual Spell Vamp.
: > Removing spell vamp is your worst idea yet. All that will do is make the people who do build it to counter sustain lane partners loose out in the long run, and will harm the meta more than it will help it. Dont remove it, embrace it, make it more fun. Because mages are so different - making it 'more fun' means that Vladimir, Akali, Kennen and Rumble - or insert some other mage with effectively free spells overpowered. So then the cycle becomes - well, all of these characters need to have their baseline effectiveness reduced in lane such that they're struggling to survive until they complete their Spell Vamp Item. If mages need lane sustain - then lane sustain needs to come in the form of something way more maintainable - because the discrepency between mage damage patterns - minions and others means that if this statistic is good across a wide variety of mages - the amount of mages whose early game we will absolutely have to **destroy** on a kit level is absurdly high and not worth that cost. At this point - I'd rather see those mages be fun in lane and the game rather than have a statistic that is a fantasy but comes at the significant expense of a lot of champion lane being interesting. The cost benefit in this case isn't terribly high.
If the problem with spell vamp is the earlygame, then why not have an item offer spell vamp that scales with level, similar to Abyssal, Shiv, or Sunfire? If you lock it away in an expensive item on top of that it means it won't be rushed, and even if it is, it won't be effective until later in the game. Like, a 3000k-ish item that gives 1% spell vamp per level would work fine. You'd expressly leave that effect out of the components, too. People get to keep their spell vamp builds, but it doesn't distort the laning phase. Everyone wins?
: The recharge time stays at 15 seconds base (only lowers with CDR) I am thinking maybe 70-90 mana cost instead of the ridiculous 60-140 and have the on-hit reduction 3-5 seconds instead of just 3 seconds rewarding his bitch slap mechanic (which is super fun rotating his spells one after another bitch slapping people) and then have like 60-80 mana cost on the stun instead of 60 and have the stun 1 second at rank 1 instead of 0.75
Huh... I coulda sworn the cooldown lowered, but you're right. My memory was playing tricks on me. Riot probably did testing and concluded that a mana cost around what they have would be appropriate. But we might be able to get them to knock his Q's down by 20 at rank 5, only increasing by 15 per rank.
: That's true although i think they could probably make the heal scale stronger instead of mana reduction. Riot probably were thinking that since supports generally had enough cdr and mana regen from items and they didn't want to focus too much on the healing
That's not a bad idea, but improving the actual heal amount seems a bit riskier, and might make him a bit too strong. Somehow reducing the mana cost lategame feels safer; it just means he can do what he already does but for longer.
: Taric Feedback
His Q is definitely bonkers in what you get out of ranking it. It feels like an ability that starts out really good but with a long cooldown, that when you rank up slowly gets worse and worse in exchange for a lower cooldown. I can't think of another ability that functions this way, where it feels like each rank is giving up something in exchange for something else. His ultimate is weird, but might end up being fun, especially since it also casts on the person you link to and such. But you're right, it'll probably end up getting changed to something else down the line.
: The high mana costs punishes players that spam their heal and stun in lane. Its better to make the mana costs scale down to late game instead of making it a flat mana cost.
Yeah, and the mana cost certainly serves that function in lane. The issue I'm talking about is that the mana cost is very high later in the game. If you cast the heal with only one charge, you only heal 10 more per rank, but it costs _20_ mana more. You lose a lot of healing efficiency at one charge with every rank*. Basically, casting with one charge is equivalent to tossing your mana to the wind, just to activate your passive. I find myself maxing it last just to keep the mana cost, and almost not wanting to rank it at all. I think the cost could be toned down lategame a bit. *While the base heal to mana cost ratio is the same at all ranks (2 mana for 1 health point), at first rank the healing is much more efficient because of the scaling. With the scaling, the heal amount can perhaps even surpass the mana cost! But at max rank, that's much, much harder to accomplish, especially on a support budget. It feels awful to rank, but you feel like you _have to_. All the while, you're getting punished by the massive mana hike. So, I guess what I'm saying is Taric's Q feels like an abusive relationship.
: What's your build as him? My endgame builds have usually had Gauntlet and/or Heart because of how well he synergizes with them and the mana costs feel fine. Run out of mana in extremely long fights, but that's only fair considering how easily he can make fights extremely long. EDIT: Though, if you're playing him as support and can't build those items, I definitely see your concern.
Was Gauntlet/Visage/Sunfire/Sterak's/Titanic, but eventually I switched out Visage for Athene's to try and keep up with the mana costs. I played another game though, this time with RoA instead of Sterak's, and I feel a lot better about his mana costs after that. You don't immediately run out, but you can't go on indefinitely. But yes, I do think it could be hard for support Taric to keep up unless he can pump out a RoA of his own. Side note: Wish Taric made some comment about RoA's gem getting more beautiful with age, or beauty not fading with age, or something.
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CrazyMLC

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