: Man, clear up your post, you've copied the contents of your previous post along with my replies to them. Use > at the beginning of a paragraph to quote, and quote only excerpts from my post, don't backtrack to yours. > I guess my complaint is that if you don't contant farm and you gank a few times you end up almost 2 lvls behind if you dont score some kills or assists. I think its underestimated the amount of time that junglers spend trying to set up ganks. Alot of walking not alot of farming. But it just may be the tradeoff that is necessary. Exactly. You either gank more or farm more. Currently there isn't much downside to camping a gankable lane. > you list some very valid points. But it still leaves the jungler high and dry farm wise if you are behind and your team is eating up most of the money you would normally have. I'm not sure why its a set in dynamic, but about mid game, every laner takes their lane farm, pushing to a safe spot, then proceeds back to getting jungle camps. You're talking mid to lategame. Keep in mind blue and red buffs now grant less gold and XP, and small camps have more of it - so ceding the blue buff, for example, won't set back the jungler as hard. And if the laners are taking all the jungle camps, there's no way to utilize Conservation stacks, anyway. > Again thank you for the response, and thoroughly reading my first one. The fact that devs are willing to discuss their game with players and constantly improve it is what makes me stay playing this game, and even if I still have beef with the changes come season 5, I will still be here playing often because of this teams commitment to the game and fans. Thank you and good luck balancing. ( I know it must be rough getting balance being 100+ champs and all that TY!) :D You made my day. Why would you think I'm a Rioter? I'm an ordinary player, just like you. :) All those feedback posts I make are directed to Rioters, after all...
I honestly assumed cus you were the one answering me all the time. I dunno... lol!
: > 1) The jungle items now have a flat health and mana regen, that does not increase with lvl or dmg dealt. In affect the health and mana regen i only good early game, and even then its pretty low. Seems very unhelpful to alot of junglers who counted on that sutain in jungle thats no longer there. This was a problem with junglers like Lee Sin and Vi - the Spirt Stone passive gave them significant sustain from the damage they dealt to monsters. More damage, more sustain. This is why a) Lizard Elder got nerfed b) Spirit of the Ancient Golem was remade, as tanks didn't get any good sustain from Spirit Stone. Champions that are meant to sustain, like Warwick, Fiddlesticks and Trundle, will continue scaling their sustain to the lategame. Others will get a significant boost after upgrading Machete, and then that's it. You can still regain health by upgrading Machete to Ranger's Trailblazer (Blasting Smite restores 15% of missing HP and mana), also smiting Brambleback restores health. > 2) The tank jungle item no longer gives a ward. There was alot of concern last season of invade wrecking tanky junglers so they got a ward to compensate. Now the wards gone again, and champions have a much easier time smite stealing, or using the new smite changes to suprise and counter jungle. Razor buff allows you to clear a ward without the red trinket. I guess you can keep your yellow trinket to ward jungle. Also, on most tanks you'll be forced to go back after three camps with little bit more than 350 gold. You can spend that spare gold on wards. > 3) The gold passives are gone. The gold passives were important because it was a way junglers could stay relevant. Junglers are expected to give up both buffs, and after lanes are pushed the laners come in and farm up. Basically taking away all the junglers income. Now the later the game goes, the far less money the jungler gets. If you are behind this is even worse because you are giving gold to your team, and enemy invades. The gold passives were partially compensated for with: * Jungle items granting way better stats right away (for comparison, Devourer more than a stacked Feral Flare) * Champion-usable Smite upgrades (you can gain significant ganking/skirmishing/teamfight power) * Smite buffs (the ones activated on monster camps) > 4) the jungle xp problem. Without getting a kill or assisting in one it almost always takes a full clear, another clear, then getting both buffs to hit lvl 6. I find myself alot at lvl 4 when top and mid are at 6 already. My ganks become ineffectual because i can just be bursted, and if you do die, you fall much farther behind. We'll see once it hits live, but I don't understand how are you still 4 when solo lanes are 6. If you clear 3 camps (using Smite on two) and back, you should be at level 3. With the Machete upgrade, rolling on to level 6 shoudln't be a problem. Even on Sejuani. So far I had trouble with Nautilus, but to be fair i never played him on Live, either. > 5) The smite time increase.... it hurts, especially if you choose to use it offensively which you are basically going to need to do. I predict now only junglers that ill see any top tier or pro action will be ones who can sustain and use the smite offensively. Leaving behind all the other junglers. Pretty much i feel that the smite/jungle items are not balanced. The jungle seems to be reverting back to the old jungle, the old problems of gold management and giving up buffs are back. How is one supposed to keep up with slower clears, less gold, less xp. and the burden of being the most map aware, who spends lots of time ganking? Overall, I guess it will be a game of tradeoffs. The junglers who will use the Smite during ganks will of course clear slower than the ones using it for farming. If the ganking junglers remain too strong, all it takes to balance the system is nerfing/buffing specific Smite upgrades. It's only normal that during the testing phase some things aren't in the right place. Remember how Frost Queen's Claim was practically never used in the beginning of S4, when its active was targeted and short-ranged? Right now all three GP10 lines are equally used (even though FQC is still considered not worth buying on many supports who utilize Spellthief's Edge in lane).
The reply was clear and well thought out, I appreciate it greatly. In response to this 4) the jungle xp problem. Without getting a kill or assisting in one it almost always takes a full clear, another clear, then getting both buffs to hit lvl 6. I find myself alot at lvl 4 when top and mid are at 6 already. My ganks become ineffectual because i can just be bursted, and if you do die, you fall much farther behind. We'll see once it hits live, but I don't understand how are you still 4 when solo lanes are 6. If you clear 3 camps (using Smite on two) and back, you should be at level 3. With the Machete upgrade, rolling on to level 6 shoudln't be a problem. Even on Sejuani. So far I had trouble with Nautilus, but to be fair i never played him on Live, either. I guess my complaint is that if you don't contant farm and you gank a few times you end up almost 2 lvls behind if you dont score some kills or assists. I think its underestimated the amount of time that junglers spend trying to set up ganks. Alot of walking not alot of farming. But it just may be the tradeoff that is necessary. The gold passives were partially compensated for with: you list some very valid points. But it still leaves the jungler high and dry farm wise if you are behind and your team is eating up most of the money you would normally have. I'm not sure why its a set in dynamic, but about mid game, every laner takes their lane farm, pushing to a safe spot, then proceeds back to getting jungle camps. Razor buff allows you to clear a ward without the red trinket. this i will probably just have to practice and choose better smite management, and see if it pays off. Others will get a significant boost after upgrading Machete, and then that's it. You can still regain health by upgrading Machete to Ranger's Trailblazer (Blasting Smite restores 15% of missing HP and mana), also smiting Brambleback restores health. I understand the lee sin problem, but perhaps it can scale with lvl like sunfire cape? IM not sure, my biggest problem is that early game on mana using champs i restore mana at a sufficient rate, then after about lvl 12-15 depending on the champ, i find i have to get a mana regen item, or max mana. Its an item that mana junglers are going to have to add to their build, when previously it wasnt always necessary. One of my cheif concerns that i didnt add originally because i Had not really fleshed out my thoughts entirely till after reading this, is that it seems that over powerful ganking has come to an end. Much of that was addressed and tweaked at the end of season 4, and some more with season 5 preseason changes. But i think with the new smite, its created a power spike in duelist junglers. Warwick with skirmishers saber, the smite plus his ult = alot of on hit instant dmg while suppressed. Ive seen udyr and teemo do the same. Champs with dueling potential have had their dueling increased greatly. I think this is whats going to render many junglers obsolete. The invades will be much stronger. But this concern is only for solo queue, where team work can't be as strong and never will be. Alot more solo fights will take place. Champs with good base values, but not necessarily scaling, who used to be considered sub par will become very strong. In the pro scene i don't know. Invading is much harder, especially with the increase in vision from the crab. Teams respond much faster to fights. Again thank you for the response, and thoroughly reading my first one. The fact that devs are willing to discuss their game with players and constantly improve it is what makes me stay playing this game, and even if I still have beef with the changes come season 5, I will still be here playing often because of this teams commitment to the game and fans. Thank you and good luck balancing. ( I know it must be rough getting balance being 100+ champs and all that TY!) (ps i thought of this after, what does the balance team think how an ideal junglers game should go?)
Rioter Comments
: Riot's directive in the itemization was always "in lane, build health first, then resistances later". That's why Doran items have health. If you want armor, you can get Ninja Tabi before finishing up Juggernaut. Moreover, you can get armor runes now that Machete sacles with tankiness as well, not just AS.
with how good mobi boots are i almost never bot ninjatabis in the jungle. And on most tanks, it was the jungle item, into another armor item. armor i think is just that good, every champ does ad. ON the plus side i guess sejuani suddenly got loads better.
: I agree, it does seem rough to be lower in xp AND have a harder time staying healthy. The jungle items/smite definitely do give you more bang for your buck though.
except they took away all teh gold gen passives, so in effect you get less money seeing as your gonan pass off most ur jungle and buffs in the mid game. ITs a big jungle nerf overall it seems
: I suggest watching TSM Bjergsen stream. He's been rolling face as jungle sej on the pbe. The new jungle does beat you up a lot though.
thats because the jungle tank item gives only health now. Basically the greatest thing ever for sej who needs health to do dmg, burts almost every other jungler who needs armor as a battle stat. all the better ganking junglers are now gonna fall behind due to the increase in dmg. If you dont have a heal mechanic its gonna be a huge pain.
Rioter Comments
: I meant, say, you clear Kruggs, red, raptors, back, get smite item, then go find the enemy jungler alone in their jungle and kill them, as they will most likely be low (as you said most junglers are). No need to team invade pre-buff spawn.
i see, the problem with that and the point im trying to make i guess is that the kugs make ranged junglers clear taking no dmg. They basically get to farm at full health all the time. Teemo when he does it uses 0 pots on his clear. He then drops shrooms and gets chilling smite and just invade the other jungle. You jump on him he smites you and steps back. If your ww, he blinds. This is the problem is they clear taking almost no dmg, where most jungler cant achieve that. Obvious exceptions warwick and prob udyr, people like that. I havnt testes with say twich yet, but i think he ill still do pretty well.
: You could try invading them. Kruggs does nothing for them if you invade, and ranged champs are notoriously weak early on, even if they are able to stay reasonably healthy against camps.
you cant make your team invade, and they have a better first clear and spend the entire game invading you instead. also invasions are really bad now cus invading for red is not worth, you need all 3 creatures to get lvl 2, so you wont if your sharing xp with 3 people then your first clear goes to shit cus you didnt smite a krugs or the frog. Riot made you need either the krugs or the frog on the first clear otherwise its really bad unless your someone with a healing mechanic like warwick. Exampls, shyvana going red, raptors, blue uses all pots and ends up under 100 health. The new jungle is brutal, and the healing on the machete sucks big time.
Rioter Comments
: They are removing alot of experience from the jungle, each level you are above the level of the camp, you lose 10% of its Exp (200 to 180 Exp), the increased respawn time and the bonus Exp from Smite that was removed, you cannot achiev the same level that was once possible. They are changing the Meta here to more Counter Ganking/ Active Ganker. Removing any possible path to AFK junglers or those who did not interacted with other lanes. This days are over.
being able to duel in the jungle seems to be the answer right now, im afraid they are just enforcing the meta more of strong duelists being the best, lee sin, kha, elise, still going to have a strong advantage vs say an amumu. IN fact i think tank junglers are going to get ruined because of how strong invading is with the new jungle items. Especially since wards have been removed from jungle items.
: Should poachers knife proc for the river crab?
your not actually poaching, its like saying poachers should proc on the drag or baron, its an open game creature.
: Yes, that is pretty much intended. Also, if you don't want the blue buff Smite reward, don't smite blue buff? On top of that, you should try a different jungle route, maybe - starting at a buff in not necessary nor particularily recommended at the moment. The Krugs or Gromp offer a good smite reward for your first clear.
I received a reply form a rioter about it on another post, pretty much need to start a side camp. Gromp or Krugs. IN response to Tdub, the "dont smite it then" i think doesnt justify riot having a buff almost nobody will smite unless they are desperate for mana in that moment and can't wait on mana. It seems a bit silly. I would agree on that if you could smite it, then if a teamate kills it you still get the increase in mana. Justify smiting then turning over to ur mage.
: > What about other ap tanks/bruisers who often depend on rylais The only AP tank with strong Rylai's preference is Singed. You've mentioned health items - Righteous Glory and Ohmwrecker are probably going to shake things up a fair bit. > the first clear is rough on shyvana, someone who typically gets the first clear well, you end up no pots and about 100 health smiting red, raptors, then smite blue That's why you need to smite Krugs first, then get red, then however you want.
ok, thnx for the response, i was wondering if the jungle was designed now not to start red or blue, but really you need to start a smaller camp for the buff. I will have to give it a few tries. I guess my counter response to the item changes is that while those both are good health defensive items, particularly righteous glory for mages, they don't actually give ap. Ohmwrecker received changes to be an armor health item, same active on turrets, new passive. with no ap if im correct. In addition what about manaless champs, I know my brother is fond of rylais on mordakaiser, and ive seen it quite a few times on vlad.
: Looking for counterplay against junglers who build Skirmisher's Sabre + Devourer.
you can always go stalker and try to outburst them, but on people like ww or udyr, its best not to tango they are already strong duelists. stalker slow can also be used to disengage if necessary. if your not jungling, the skirmisher does true dmg, so any health item is the best defense against it. the randuins gives health, plus reduction to their as, plus a slow for engage or disengage. all around good item, even makes a decent 6th item on champs that dont normally build defenses.
: [Preseason] Itemization Feedback Megathread (November 11th PBE Build)
What about other ap tanks/bruisers who often depend on rylais. I know that when I play sejuani, rylais is fantastic, not necessarily for the slow your already pumping out because sej has oodles, but for the ap that works with her w. In addition sometimes your facing mixed dmg and building ap armor vs ap mr isnt a good decision and health is the best option. and now the option is gone. karma is another who often grabbed rylais due to her leash ult version goes up on her % health. I see that changing rylais could be good for alot of mages, but theres a few champs who often depended on this item along with ROA. (ps the machete needs work, the first clear is rough on shyvana, someone who typically gets the first clear well, you end up no pots and about 100 health smiting red, raptors, then smite blue, its ugly 9/21 as marks and quints. armor mr per lvl)
: Jax double slow actives
jax? im more afraid of champions with slows or stuns, using the slow to guarantee a stun, or like lee sin, double slow and its an easy walk to ult someone back. Its gonna be brutal on some champs, and meh on others. Champs that normally are not good because they have skill shots that can be blocked by minions now dont have to worry about it to get cc. or they slow to make shots easier. I think its op on most champs.
: Feedback on Kalista from an ADC Main
my greatest fear is actually in the orb walking, it has a huge potential to be abused, and ive seen some people unintentionally abuse it, not so much anyone who has the hang of it. what you can do it, aa or spear, jump in, aa or spear and then jump out immediately. Its extremely effective harrass that is hard to return. It lets you aa people under tower without actually grabbing aggro, and its super dangerous for a turn around surprise dmg. On top of that its an effective dodge of narrow projectiles. IM worried once a pro gets the in and outs down, its gonna be brutal, then the nerf bats coming a swinging big time.
Rioter Comments
: Perhaps make it deal half damage if its popped? The damage is pretty good if it doesn't get popped and if it gets hit on the whole team, that's 10-15% of their max health on each target so that seems a bit much to not have counter play for the damage.
The counterplay late game is what happens every time late game with sion, the point of the whole complaint. The sheild gets knocked off before your in range to pop it 95% of the time in team fights. You never can get close enough to pop it, it becomes junk, at least its good return dmg to tanks and bruisers or assassins who jump you if it always did dmg. IN response to the dmg yes i agree if this was changed the dmg would have to be reduced, whats prop gonna happen is people are gonna brush hide and pop it at the start to do big dmg, but it will become some of the most situational dmg in the game. Its part of the reason the ability was such crap on ap sion past lvl 10, early game you cleared waves and traded, after that, you never got dmg on people even though the dmg was great. It was a complete failure on old sion, not sure why they think it will suddenly be viable on new sion.
: Sion Q should not be nullified by silence
agreed, needs to be immune to hard cc, i mean you already cant move while doing it.
: PBE Sion Bug
Good catch, bump for notice.
Rioter Comments
Rioter Comments
: Janitor Xin Zhao skin
riot needs more hilarious skins, do it. Here's a map, and a janitor behind it!"
: The Champ, Jax
Theyre Olafing him, (or whatever champ in recent memory got changes and just sucks now). It really needs to be, hes less item dependent, and more stable base stats. Flat nerfing health/resistance isnt it. It needs to be a as per lvl nerf here, slight health per lvl there, increase in dmg not from his ult, but decrease in dmg form his ult, because thats where the rediculous sustain comes from. Without doing the math I don't know, but it needs to be a lot of little tweaks, nit just shitting on his resistances.
Rioter Comments
: (Suggestion) Maybe a special skin for people on PBE at the end of season 4?
id like a public vote on which champ gets a new skin, plus contest for artwork, that would be sick.
: Varus update/ rework soon?
all adc are getting a change in itemization, we have yet to see who ends up stronger in the end.
Rioter Comments
: Skarner rework QoL request (RE: Passive)
agreed, its also unclear in the jungle when its on 3 monsters and you cant really tell which one is getting stunned when.
Rioter Comments
Rioter Comments
Rioter Comments
: [Skarner] - Bring back the heal please.
I agreem the mana costs on skarner are abysmal right now, you can't even sustain the mana back in the jungle with the spirit items its that bad. I agree i find myself falling very low in the jungle without the heal, and its pretty ugly. I have another post saing they need to chagne his passive, so they can buff his abilities. But before that its going to suck.
: Skarner PBE analysis
I guess noone cares about skarner :(.
Rioter Comments

Capitan Rick

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