: I made a similar topic as well. Though i disagree with the one with FQC versus its Sightstone version. Because RubySightstone is _just that slot inefficient_ on them, they are actually better off with the sightstone version even though it is a less efficient item than FQC, which is a problem. Overall, the sightstone upgrades have pretty much failed to accomplish their task.
That is very true about the inefficiency of Ruby Sightstone on Mage supports, but, you lose out on 25 AP and CDR by using the Sightstone version, not to mention the active which, in my opinion, is much better than the old active. Which is why I would have preferred to see an upgrade-able Ruby Sightstone over butchered support items. Even if those upgrades were not huge, but just something to make them a little more slot efficient. For example, as you stated, Mage supports inefficiency building Ruby Sightstone. But maybe we will see some changes once it hits the live servers and they notice that no one is really building those items. But maybe, once it hits live, we will see tons of people building these items. Who knows!
: tbh i feel this might flip the map and cause adc and supps to go top and tops to go bot bc u want to get the buff for ur adc and take towers. so adcs like cait, trist, jinx (if the new items dont) will be even bigger bc with this buff they will take two towers while the other team will take one.
35% damage reduction for ranged attacks. So it will make it hard for an ADC to take this buff.
: Because of how riot have removed wards no good support in their right mind would ever not buy the sightstone upgrades. In my opinion riot should remove the origional tier 3 support upgrades and turn them into items in their own right, this way supports don't lose the utility but gain huge amounts of slot efficiency.
I would like to agree with you, but, if Riot made those items into regular items they would be slot efficient on all other lanes as well causing Riot to up the price so that they were no longer slot efficient, meaning no one would ever buy them as there are items probably more focused on what they actually want than those support items. Which is why I think they should just make different versions of Ruby kind of like how they have different paths for boots. Just give small stats to make them slightly more efficient than just Health. Example: Sightstone + Cloth Armor = Ruby Sightstone that gives just a little more armor to amke the slot just a little more efficient. Doesn't have to have the armor of, say, Randuin's but just enough to help.
: So, Riot succeeded in doing exactly what they wanted ? They always said that the don't want the upgrades of sightstone to be actually good item. They want it to be barely slot efficient. Imo that's what they did. Those upgrade are barely slot efficient, just enough so that you can consider buying them if you don't need the active of one of the three support item. And that's it.
Indeed it is what they wanted, but why give butchered support items? Which is why I say Cloth Armor's amount of armour etc...
Rioter Comments
: People STILL find ways around this new champ select.
I was just thinking of the exact same scenario when I queued up for my game. Who is really going to stop someone from getting their primary role, even if they ended up getting their secondary role, if they are first pick?
: You misunderstand me. I'm not saying it's hard to dodge at all. In fact, like I said up there, people end up walking on top of it at the start of the game because they don't UNDERSTAND that there is going to be a second part to the Q, not because it is hard to dodge. And the skill is instant if you corner them against a wall.
Ok, yes, I understand. Just a little animation tweak to show it's coming back. Not a terrible idea by any means!
: Thank you. His W is far more consistent now which is honestly a great buff. While the cd being the same would have been nice, the reliability it now brings with Graves' new harder burst just makes it obscene to a single target as well as it being a good zoning tool for an AD ranged burst champion. The body block is really frustrating sometimes when all they have to do is walk over a curve, use mobility to go next to any terrain or minions or outright just put distance on him. His Q is the only thing that allows him to even deal real damage if they're smart enough to kite or use the surroundings with the such a small, somewhat high cd dash in his kit. In that vein, it would actually be nice if Graves max Q hit terrain also slowed for 1 second or his Ult having a weak execution effect attached. The only real change he needs if I had to just pick one, is to keep the proximity damage, but allow for selective targets. (Minions are short too, why not shoot over them).
I agree, the minion block is a tad too much. Don't mind if it stops at a enemy champion, but every minion, wall, etc... is a little too much. Other than that, yes he is awesome.
: does that count for friendly things as well? (wards, minions, neutral-jungle monsters[when not aggravated], and even friendly champions)?
Nope only non-friendly objects.
: How do you switch his passive, im playing him right now and its just stupid.
You can't switch his passive. Without the passive his auto's would be way too powerful, you almost have to think of him as more a of a high range melee champ instead of a long range marksman.
: Going to go through some random points before a focused entry on Graves just to explain my viewpoint and reasoning and such. Be great if you guys commented on any of it. ------- I've mained Graves for a few seasons now. I loved the simple complexity of him and how it gives rewards for hard hitting and repositioning with mana usage. Am I against this far more focused style? Not really, I'm fine with champions changing -- keeps out a stale game to me. ------- CertainlyT -- I've actually always loved your designs. They're broken quite a bit in terms of balance or numbers (Can't tell if this is even your fault to begin with though), but they're unique, take skill (sans Darius in comparison), fit their thematic, and are overall fun to play (even if not against sometimes). So the huge works on focusing ADC mini roles like this is something I love to see fit that style you bring, but with noting balancing from people and also **the largest: your [detailed mechanical gameplay relevant] intent for each adc reworked (Graves **and Cait mainly now) in the OP. It actually affects the responses we give because it gives us a better contextual reference. ------- So far, the changes seem bruiser ADC to go for top lane. Decent kiting (Well, sort of bad actually, you need to burst -- kiting only possible if you didn't W them with the burst -- remedied with lowered CD of E maybe or having some weird passive that gains damage on targets at 15% or lower when in a higher range) and high burst with tankiness (Plate + Visage and then IE, Dancer/Shiv, LS item and Greaves/Zephyr is what I've been looking at.). His bot lane has to be something like Crank or Naut with him because he'll suffer more than sustain Morde with that kind of range and damage at anything beyond in their face. Shifting him from mid game carry (unless snowballed of course) to late game was pretty sneaky. He has early strength and late strength now -- I like it. ----- So now -- the concise points of likes and dislikes and such. - _**Auto attacks**_ : This is awesome. Straight up beautiful and unique for a marksman in League. The spray, knockback, damage by proximity. The complaint I have however, is the **body block. In teamfights, this is a huge hindrance.** You have to be a little beefy to tank and deal high damage. Almost using assassin tactics (i.e. Dash from Raptors out of nowhere) or be suicidal and just flash dash in to take someone down. - Suggestion: I don't really know, this is just guesswork: **Deal full damage if AAing anything against terrain ** in a small area near that terrain in my opinion OR (minions are short, can you not shoot above them?) still be able to shoot the target you like but keep the proximity scaling damage. Just that at least 1 pellet will hit your target. But that's a little experimental hope. Also in conjunction and to be stated later: **Make his Grit E like Wukongs passive and scale a little based on enemy champions around him** in addition to (reduced slightly?) base Grit. This would benefit his teamfight, diving and being ganked (because bot lane gets ganked like every 3 minutes) without having to make or think of random changes for his fitting Autos and also reduce the frustration a single target could have to take him down if he snowballed off of one kill. - _**Q**_ : I like the plays you can make with this, E and Ult. Outplay mechanics increased. The wall thing is pretty cool too and this can almost (or does) one shot minion waves at like level 9 with decent AD (from my experience). I don't know how to feel about this other than the delay seems a little long. The wall thing is pretend you're Vayne and condemn is the nuke instead of a stun imo. - Suggestion: One of two things is what I would suggest. To make the wall more rewarding by having the powder line deal the max damage (or scaling damage based on proximity to terrain/explosion if terrain hit) if it hits terrain OR just tweaking the delay to be a little shorter. He would still be fine without these changes completely, but it feels slightly frustrating as it doesn't stop people running to you very well -- it can zone rather well or, with practice, maybe hurt enemies running away , but not too satisfying for landing a terrain hit lined up in comparison to taking down entire minion waves to make up for bad farming with the autos earlier or if you need to burst them and made a dangerous/risky reposition. Also, compensates for his inability to kill over walls anymore. - _**W**_ : Vision control QoL was needed for so long, thank you. Slow being nerfed seems unnecessary but I'm not that against it considering his survivability increased from everything else anyway. - _**E**_ : Love how good this can get for his style of play, however the teamfight problem in conjunction with his AA's exist and the dash range isn't amazing enough to constitute a decent teamfight for him. (lol minion block on his AA's will be so real, you could dash in and a single minion would stop you.) meaning he needs to get even closer than comfortable unless he wants to be a Q - R bot in teamfights until he can clean up. - Suggestion: **Same as stated in passive**. Let him keep more survivability based on number of champions around him. Wukong like passive adendum to his Grit E for more tankiness in dashing into 4-5 people since he can't really poke with consistent damage otherwise or build tanky enough early-mid game. * -_** R**_ : Makes sense and looks great. Knockback is a little minimal to be a slight nuisance but it does grant a bit of a safety tool of escape or clutch engage in special situations when E is down. It does limit his follow up a bit if they live with one tick ( as is my eternal luck ), but it keeps him from taking out entire squads with burst and tankiness in late game if built so. Refreshing E when using R would be very nice. - Suggestion: Experiment with longer knockback or a passive that scales his knockback with how much damage he has dealt over x period of time perhaps? Or just make his R refresh his E. ----- Overall, while I will mourn the collapse of old Graves being my "near mindless shoot things and instinctive response" champion, I look forward to this new iteration and finding out how he can work the best.
Very well written post. Auto Attacks - Body block is going to be the most frustrating thing about his whole rework and the fact that you almost have to get too close. I think he needs a little bit of his range back or he is going to require building a very early tank item to survive against normal range ADC's. In the top lane it would not be too much of a hindrance. Q - Love and hate the wall mechanic. Love it for the instant nuke, hate it for not being able to hit a running enemy you had jumped a wall. Overall awesome ability. W - With the slow nerf I think they should have left the cool down the same. E - The passive idea you suggested is a really great idea, completely agree with everything you said about this ability. R - Both like and dislike the knock back, because like you, my luck is pretty bad an never seem to get the execute which then in turns puts me even further away from that kill. Commented on another post that suggested R reset E, completely agree with this if they are going to keep or remove the knock back on his R. That way it would either give you the chance to redeem yourself on blowing your slightly early or in the case of no knock back give you that chance to escape or even engage on another opponent. Graves was my first ADC that I ever played and I liked his kit the way it was, but this rework looks very promising and very fun.
: After playing Graves a bit here is my feedback. Passive- Overall I think it gives Graves a unique niche. He has a shotgun, shoot close = more damage. However, I think it was hit too hard and something needs to give to make it work well in lane. So it was hit in 4 ways 1. Low range auto attack 2. Damage spread between pellets 3. Cannot pass through minions 4. On an ammo system The upside is that if you manage to hit a target up close with all pellets your auto attack is 125% of your AD. In my opinion the drawbacks are a little too high and one of those drawbacks needs to be adjusted to make it work. In my opinion the easiest way is to give the range back to the auto attack. 500-525 would be ideal. That way graves can auto attack at a normalish range but there are still the drawbacks that make it ineffective at that range. So max range auto at 500-525 would mean maybe 2-4 pellets hit a target (depending on crit or not). Those autos can still be blocked by units and Graves is still limited by the ammo system. Q- Only gripe with this ability is that you can't shoot over walls. There are more situations where shooting over walls would be much more useful than faster explosion on the 2nd part of Q. Maybe compromise to where it'll only explode on a wall IF the bullet is at the end of the range (say where the cross of the T starts). Otherwise you can shoot over walls/corners for the beginning part of the range. W- Not too sure why the cooldown was increased, it's essentially the same spell (slightly more effective) but it already had quite a long cooldown. E- I'm a bit confused with how true grit works with this ability. On the tooltip it says true grit can stack? As for use in game you get the bonus armor/mr for 4 seconds and then it goes away. Not sure where the stacking comes in because it doesn't seem to be there at the moment. I do think that auto attacks should reduce the cooldown MORE than before since his auto attacks are much more limited. R-I really dislike the knock back feature added on the ability. It's counter intuitive the majority of the time. I say just get rid of it flat out! There is an easier way to give the same effect, while not interrupting the flow of combat/chase potential when your ult isn't the killing blow. That is, have R refresh the cooldown of E. It's basically the same as the knock back but with more options. It also gives more combo options/outplay options etc. Right now the only thing you can do with R is hope it's a last hit or blow it to knock yourself over a small wall for a cheeky get away (not worth). I think it's mostly irritating because I'm so used to canceling the R animation with E and now it's just annoying because it knocks you further away from your target that you need to be closer to because of his new auto attack. So if your ult doesn't kill the target it puts you in a pretty awful position to follow up to finish off a target. The Ult didn't change very much at all, it's still used for exactly the same reason, you use it to snipe a low health target. So unless the ult is changed to something that makes sense for having a knock back on I think it should either just be removed or give an E reset instead. Also side note. Lifesteal is very weird on Graves. IMO it should heal him how a normal auto attack would life steal. So instead of the 33% of amount healed for aoe (which I think is what is happening..) have it heal flat like a normal auto attack. Or slightly less like 90% of what a normal auto attack since he can get the bonus damage. It definitely needs to be looked at though.
Agreed, he needs some of his range back on his auto. Q- This definitely needs to be able to be used over walls, it's bad enough that his auto's hit everything, let alone his only other way to do damage at range, not counting his Ult of course. W- Agreed, cooldown increase was not needed. E- True Grit will last for 4 seconds if nothing his hit after casting E, if you keep hitting stuff before it wears off and you cast E again you get another stack of True Grit's AR/MR. R- I like the knock back and I don't. It's nice when you're up close in a fight and you've just executed an enemy and want to get the heck out. But, like you say, if you didn't execute the enemy then it's a complete hindrance. I like your idea of casting R resets E. Opens up more opportunity for outplay and would allow you to actually stay in the fight even longer. Lifesteal - I didn't actually notice, to be honest, but he has the chance to heal for more because of the extra bullets wouldn't he? Also has the chance to heal for a lot less, if it works the way I think it would. But overall I think the rework is pretty amazing.
: Ok so I have a quick question. What about when graves is chasing someone, and they are both within minions, like a full cluster, his passive says it hits the first enemy [thing] it collided with on its path. This would be a problem when you're trying to chase, is there something I'm missing or is it an actual part of his kit?
Nope, that is an actual part of his hit. To even last hit casters you must move to the side of the wave or use your abilities. Once you are in that nice, close range his auto's hit like an absolute truck, due to all his bullets hitting the target. He is definitely a champ you do not want to get too close to without some protection, and on the flip side, you do not want to engage the enemy unless the numbers are in your favor as well due to the fact that you do only hit the first thing in front of you. So with the safety of a tank you enemy ADC has a pretty easy target. Another note to add is his Q is also quite powerful to make up for that part of his passive. His strengths and weaknesses are very clear cut. From long range he is weak, up close he is a monster.
: Do you see graves possibly being put into the top lane, due him being tankish, close range and a decent damage dealer kind of like most of the juggernauts?
I think he will be a wild card champ, able to play multiple lanes.
: I think this rework makes Graves a lot of fun. However I found the reload mechanic a little bit clunky as it is. I'm not suggesting you remove it or rework it, it's clear that this is a core part of Graves now, however I think the animation should be tweaked and smoothed a bit. It might just be me because I'm playing on 200+ ping on the PBE but maybe it's something to look into.
My ping isn't that high and I, personally, find it not too be that bad really. You get 2 auto's fairly quick with a slight delay for the reload. If you're trying to attacked from too far out it does make it feel "clunky" because you don't feel like you're doing any damage, but once you're in that sweet spot, any smoother or faster would just be completely unfair.
: I don't know if this was mentioned yet, but the way how his Q works isn't really that intuitive to your opponent. On my testing, I found that, at first, everyone who seemed to lane against me as Graves didn't actually aknowledge that the second part of it is what was hurting them the most, only after they ended up walking on top of it 2-3 times. Just a thought I think you guys should consider, mostly for the sake of clarity...The second part of the Q just doesn't feel like it's going to happen until it does, if that makes sense? Maybe if you guys fiddled with the bomb's animation so it looks like it's going to explode at the end instead of it exploding once it touches the ground? Or maybe add some red lines around the explosion's Area of Effect? Or not even mess with it at all. Ultimately it's up to you guys. I just feel like the lane opponent should get a more clear sign that "This thing is gonna hurt" for the second part of the Q so Graves has to corner his opponents against a wall to get a reliable Q explosion, rather than landing them early because the skill's feedback is misleading.
If they gave it too much of a warning you would never land the second part of the Q, it's not instant, so there is time for mobility champs to easily get out of the way.
: The implementation of the new 5k testers has one downside
The other downside you need 2 to make a custom game as well.
: Support Item( 3rd upgrade) and Sightstone+ Support item upgrade (2nd)
They're kind of giving you the option of having a more efficient Sightstone by almost giving you a fully upgraded Support item but you lose out on the active. As far as I could see it isn't really worth upgrading Sightstone that way but instead just go the Ruby path as the actives and some of the stats are hard to pass up on the fully upgraded support items. What I was hoping was going to happen with Sightstone was more of an upgrade to different versions of Ruby but with an added armour stat, or AP, etc... It didn't have to be much for bonus stats but just a little something to make it worth while to upgrade to Ruby.
: Introducing chroma packs!
I think if these recolors should be for the base skins only and not for every skin available. This would open up a cheap way of getting a "skin". Just seems like it would defeat the purpose of buying those expensive skins and for some just ruins the theme. Not to mention it would make some already expensive skins REALLY expensive. Blood Moon skins turned yellow or blue? Doesn't make sense. But awesome idea either way. Just seems pricey, but not pricey, at the same time.
: > [{quoted}](name=Canadian Ninja,realm=PBE,application-id=2EAF660193FA3B668D7234B3AEBB530C5AB7F651,discussion-id=Mv4ZJN4O,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2015-03-18T14:06:45.190+0000) > > There's an emote you can spam to show your level in game. it's only for your team, i hope they'll put it for enemy team as well.
Ok, I must have read it wrong. I thought everyone could see it. I hope it stays that only your team can see it, as it could be used as a "bully" tool.
: HI correct me if i am wrong but the enemy team can't see if i mastered this champ or not right ? if so why we don't tell them by adding a nice visual effect it doesn't have to be big or something just a tiny you can call it accessory i guess on the champion it self like golden ribbon on it's weapon ?! just an idea
There's an emote you can spam to show your level in game.
: sejuani changs
Highest win rate over the last week, over the last month, while being in the top 25 for most picked champion across all Ranks. She does deserve to be brought back in line a little bit. Hate to see a tank jungler get nerfed, but she did get a small buff to her E and the changes to her Ult are to make sure you actually hit her Ult. With a 90% slow, you might as well have been snared anyway, but maybe only dropping it to 50% might have been better.
: in the end, this is just a different way of an aoe champ like riven with shiv. Tons of aoe but not op
But the difference is Luden's also gives 120AP where Shiv gives Crit Strike and Attack Speed, not AD, so her abilities are going to get good scaling plus a little more burst.
: I see a very good idea thin new feature to show how good you are and it makes you do your best to improve your favourite champ I think. I like it. GJ Riot!
I think it a good in that sense too, that it makes you want to improve. BUT, I don't believe that just anyone can see it!
: 1) That does make sense, but I still miss typing DFG into the search :C 2) That is true, but also seems like a lot of unnecessary work... But what you say does make sense. 3) I don't know, I feel like way too much has been about movement lately. Ahri Q for example, Bard being a roamer, etc. I think capitalising on even more movement speed will just make MS a boring stat instead, they should really balance it out a bit more. 4) Yes, DFG was indeed backwards too! And my knickers are still in a knot.
I agree with this bit about the movement speed. Most of the champions that I think of that are going to build this already have awesome mobility or have something that makes up for the lack of mobility. Example: Leblanc, Ahri, and Katarina come to mind of good mobility champions that are going to abuse the movement speed and can stack this almost instantly. Example 2: Cassiopeia. Gets 20% movement speed if her Q damages an enemy and her E will stack this like crazy once she lands that Q and get casting and moving. So an extra 7% to really stick to those champions and even more damage on top? But it will be nice on champions like Syndra, with no dashes, who have a hard time sticking to champions like those listed in the first example. This item maybe if it was built to give 120 AP, movement speed and maybe CDR wouldn't be as "I have to rush this" or even want to build it at all on those types of champions. Although CDR isn't a bad option on any champion and neither is movement speed! Maybe sub the CDR for a little bit of mana? This way they could keep that 120 AP item in the game while buffing lower mobility champions in some way without making high mobility champs even more powerful. Just seems a lot of champion tweeks are going to be needed, just the same as when DFG was in the game. So it is kind of going full circle in one sense.
: New Game-dev type Custom mode? (Repost from General PBE Feedback)
I believe they prefer non-PBE related content suggestion to be posted on the main League boards to prevent clutter.] But like Blubber Fun said: > [{quoted}](name=Blubber Fun,realm=PBE,application-id=AYQh7p7O,discussion-id=Q0i4Q9Vh,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2015-03-13T03:38:48.556+0000) > > To high of a chance of exploits is my thoughts
: Mastery is not so much representing skill as experience. You cannot lose your mastery ranking.
And I think not being able to get demoted is a key problem with this system. And duo queuing. You might have played a champion to what seemed like near perfection when you were in Bronze but maybe you're getting destroyed in Gold with this champion. You should have to lose your rank so you don't put a false impression on your teammates or your enemies. This rank could actually change the way your team or enemies play. You could easy inflate your ranking by duo queuing or any set of premades just due to the face every has their main so your team is going to perform better and give you a false sense of your ranking. Example: Your support could be 100% the reason you never died and their rank could go to shit because they sacrificed themselves just to save your out of place ass. Truly needs to be a feature just you and your friends can view, not strangers.
: I'm sure I'm going to get downvoted for whatever reason, but If you play league, and you want to know which of your friends play league, why not just ask them like a normal person, instead of having to do some really roundabout way of finding them on facebook or something? If they are your friend in real life, and you want to know bad enough if they play (because you most likely want play with them) wouldn't you just ask, or send them a refer a friend request to see, send a text, anything? This seems like some fluffy random thing that really isn't needed.
Sometimes people play these games that you would never dream of and this might open that door to that person! You just never know. And at least it isn't being forced on you to link your Facebook. So if you don't want to use it, don't!
: Everytime Facebook... In my Opinion its unnecesary! I don't Need Facebook to Play with friends. I think when i wanna Play with friend i will be able to find them and add them without Facebook so i dont Need this Connection. I liked at Lol that their is no Connection to social plattforms at my account but thats just my opinion.
At least it isn't being forced on you to link your Facebook. Riot really seems to have taken every precaution not to make this an invasive feature. I mean, it doesn't even post to your news feed! Sometimes people play these games that you would never dream of and this might open up that door to that person!
: New friend discovery feature on the way
Neat feature! Best part about it is the fact that it doesn't interact with your feed. Good job!
Good idea in theory, but I think it would get abused more than it would get used for the right reasons. And the penalty the dodger gets is a byproduct of dodging that they will just have to live with if you do not wish to play out the game so you can report them the right way. So you decide between actually playing and reporting the player or longer queue times. Not the end of the world either way. Who knows, maybe you end up winning this game? You get you report him for being a toxic prick in champ select and gain some LP! Lose? Well at least you get to report him the right way! Who knows, maybe he gets banned? Either way, I personally believe, it's best if the reporting in left for the end of game. If you were foolish enough to tell this player that you reported him it could just make the situation even worse once you get into a game. That's if you haven't dodged already.
: In-client Match History
I agree with all that you said but would like to add that it would be nice to see the assists on all the kills, on both the client and on the web for maybe both the graph and the heat map. I think it would tell you a lot about maybe how you died or even how you may have turned your lane around after getting smoked a couple times by the enemy. like did the jungler gank or maybe top lane TP'd in, or, heck, maybe both happened, who knows?! Just be the perfect little addition I think! :)
Rioter Comments
: Champion Mastery
I agree with you 100% on this. All this is going to do is create lane anxiety and it could be due to a player just spamming the living daylights out of this champion until he has some "high ranked, cool badges". It is really an unnecessary feature for bragging rights and a way to bully their way into a lane position, creating a toxic environment before the game even begins. Which I'm sure Riot doesn't want to promote! If they are going to implement this it should only be view-able by you and your friends on your/their profiles.
: Amumu's (W) Bug - 5.6 Patch
This happens with his regular skin as well not just the Party. But the party skin has the toggle animations backwards and the regular doesn't!
: I encountered something similar, when I turned his W on the icon would not be flashing like it was turned on, and when I turned it off the icon said it was toggled on.
I encountered this on the Party skin as well. The toggle effect on the ability icon is backwards. But I also encountered something similar to Mushkai on both regular Amumu and Party skin. Once you've run out of Mana your W stays on and still deals damage, but I could turn it off and back on and it would turn on/do damage again once I had Mana to turn it back on, but once I ran out of Mana it would stay on again. So I would say Amumu is bugged in general! EDIT: Also I love the skin, makes me chuckle! :)
: His most recent update adds some much needed color. I'm just concerned about the texture stretching on the purple design around his lapel.
I agree 100% with this comment. The overall added colour was an AWESOME addition and is exactly what the skin needed, but the purple design around his lapel just looks really bad when it stretches but looks nice when not stretched. We can probably live with it though. ;) I love Galio and this is a nice skin for him!
: PBE Bugs & Feedback Thread: April Fools' Skins!
All these skins are amazing skin! Great job! The only thing that bothers me a little is the colour of Nasus' fur makes his nose look a little like a duck bill from certain angles when he is running. Other than that it is perfect!
: Happened to me too! I was in a custom game against bot with the new nasus skin.
: You're right FH is still good on most tanks its also very gold efficent. But i would still very reluctantly buy it on Shyv,Zac,Rek'sai just because that mana is just a gold waste. And except for FH there is no tank item in the game that gives you a decent boost to cdr while supports have to carefully choose their items to not cap over 40% (zyra probably the most extreme example) You're also right on the Cinderhulk calculations BUT i've never said its a bad item. It's a great item! And it helps alot in "snacking" some camps in betweeen. But it doesnt help where help, at the moment at least, is most needed and that is the early game. you're probably not wrong about the hybrid item path for junglers, but i dont like it personally it makes the jungle role even more complicated as it now i think there are enough "levers", as Riot calls them, already in the game to adress the problem. to bad patch 5.5 Maintenance is already sheduled so i think there won't be that much of change for this cycle :/
No I completely agree that there needs to be another Armour based item that gives CDR that isn't Mana based for those champions that have zero use for Mana. Even if it was only like 5% CDR or something on Cinderhulk would be nice. Riot has also kind of balanced a lot of the Manaless Champions around the fact that with too much CDR and having little (Rage, energy bars, etc...) to no resources that too much available CDR on these Champions make them really strong as they can use their abilities maybe a little too often. I definitely agree that it hurts Zac the most by removing the CDR due to Zac's Ult having a huge cooldown even at max rank. For some Champions Cinderhulk will be a huge improvement and make them viable options. For others it it has it's upsides and downsides so it won't really change them a whole lot. Overall it is a better item because most of the true tanks can use Frozen Heart and most of the Bruisers benefit more from the other Jungle items anyway! Early game clears will never been fair between all junglers while there is only one starting item. Machete just works so much better with auto-attack/AD-based junglers than it does with tanks. So people who rely on mostly auto-attacks to clear the jungle will always have a better clear than tanks. And a lot of the tanks are laners as well so buffing them for the jungle might make them too strong in lane. Good example is Jarvan, who has a higher win rate in Top lane than he does in Jungle. Mind you he is a Bruiser. But you get the idea. Multiple items wouldn't be that complicated really. No more difficult than choosing what items to build to begin with. If 1 of 3 items builds into an AD/AP/Tank item it should be pretty straight forward.
: Luden's Echo
The item isn't necessarily broken, just really strong on some champs, lackluster on a few and perfectly balanced for others. Only 1 champion I can really think of that it might be broken on would be Cassiopea. The movespeed and how quickly she can stack the item, coupled with already high damages on Live Server, just works so well with her and might be too much extra damage and allow her to stick to you too much as she already gets 20% movement speed if she lands her Q. So they are creating the same problem as DFG, just in a vastly smaller scale, that they are going to balance a few mages around the item. Apposed to almost every Mage around DFG.
: Ahri Charm and Ludens Echo
It's not a bug, all of the passive's that you can toggle are also procing the item. It was also discussed [Here](http://boards.pbe.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/champions-gameplay-feedback/9KJ7yZ7I-ludens-echo-and-mordekaiser-and-many-more-champions?comment=0001) as well.
: Some might argue that this is kind of OP, because then it would stack like 6 AP per Q, but still, that isn't that much of a difference honestly.
Do that 10 times for a total of 60 AP and it adds up quickly...
: Nautilus main here... {{champion:111}} I like the item but would prefer to have 10% CDR rather than + 25% bonus health... as a Tank i dont need even more health in the lategame... i already have 5 k with full build, and i dont need 5.800 HP However getting to 40% CDR as fast as possible is what it's all about. Having your CC spells up more often allows you to gank more and be more usefull for your team. Right now i can get to 40% CDR with Juggernaut, Locket and Frozen heart and be one tanky dude, with no damage though. Now it will be harder to hit that 40% as you need another CDR item or CDR runes and masteries... which is not easy to go for as a utility tank.
What most people forget it that most Tanks are very likely to run the Sorcery mastery and get that extra 5% CDR. So in the grand scheme of things most tanks will only be missing that 5% while being tankier and doing more damage.
: Having the Black Shield blocking the ult, may prevent you from being saved. For example, if you have the shield on you from a teamfight, but are about to die, surely you would want the bard ult?
But at the same time if I'm running away from the enemy and get Bard Ult'd I would like to be able to keep on running! Really depends on the situation but 9/10 I'd like to keep running/have my movement to re-position. Unless he is trying to shield me from a skillshot or something of that nature, then it would suck if you just so happen to have Black Shield up.
: English is my native language, i understand your points, thank you for taking the time to make as clear as possible. Personally i think that the passive dissapating the charges is reasonable as: they're all techically ACTIVES, as the only passive abilities are Gnar's "hyper" and Vayne's "Condemn" which can't be turned off or on, the abilities are "Activated" and consume mana as they go. Also it should be a matter of positioning when using L.E. while it'd be awkward to have it proc on minions, in most teamfights they won't be around minions or it won't really matter because the damage will still spread to champions... there are also times when you'd WANT the passive to proc, specifically amumu or anivia.
I agree with this. They should proc Ludens, as they are all toggled passives. And it does prioritize champions, does it not?
: Buying boots on swiftness on Lux or Xerath is more trolling then not. This is a legit item that will be essential on them. What I mean is, I feel like having this item give 10% CDR with the same passive would not be so easy to abuse of. This item will help roamers roam even more, and immobile mages impossible to catch. Just my 2 cents.
The problem with this item and having CDR built into it is that the spammy mages will be even more spammy and stacking/procing even more often. While the movement speed will allow immobile mages to maybe catch some of these over mobile champions. But in a spammy immobile vs non-spammy mobile Mage fight the one who can build and use this item is definitely going to have the upper hand. Champions like Karthus and Cass are going to abuse this to no end, especially Cass. She will be able to stick to you even easier with the bonus movement speed on her Q and the extra 7% from this item.
: I did. Clear was friggin good. I think it stacks with cape. I went 12/14/26 with her and I bought {{item:3725}} {{item:3260}} {{item:3143}} {{item:3068}} {{item:3102}} {{item:3110}} Just raped Voli, adcs
It's not supposed to stack with Sunfire Cape as they have the same passive name. [This Guy](http://boards.pbe.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/bugs/bcEprwEX-cinderhulk-sunfire-cape-seem-to-critically-strike) seems to have experienced the same thing with the two doing some weird interaction with each other and the damage numbers not adding up. I even tried to guesstimate some math for it and what it boils down to is that it's one weird bug. But moral of the story is no, they are not supposed to stack at all.
: It's an amazing item. But i think that this item will be in all games. Luden's Echo will be useless for who ?
This is kind of the same problem they created with Shiv and ADC's. Even the buff the Phantom Dancer hasn't really slowed down the purchase of Shiv. For Mages this is going to help them clear faster and, in theory, save them some mana as they might not have to cast a second ability to clear a wave. And as if a lot of the spammy mages really needed another tool to make them wave clear quickly.
: I had no Magic Penetration (Fulltank runes and masteries to get the 8k HP without the bladed armor since it would have falsified the result) and I was careful not to get the 4th dragon before recording. They are not supposed to stack since the passives are unique and have the same name. It would be logical if the damage would equal cinder+sunfire but the problem is that it's twice the maxdamage of cinderhulk (being 66 ingame even though it shouldn't be) so 66*2=132.
Yeah that's some really weird stuff. But it really is like it's taking a lot of the formula and for a slight second they stack and apply all kinds of extra damage because of it. Sounds like it's going to be a hard bug to track.
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Canadian Ninja

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