: That comment was mostly about internal testing. Diamond/Master level testers that play with/as/against him every day are consistently saying he's a god right now.
> [{quoted}](name=RiotRepertoir,realm=PBE,application-id=2EAF660193FA3B668D7234B3AEBB530C5AB7F651,discussion-id=Y7ELMJAK,comment-id=004e0000,timestamp=2015-08-07T03:21:28.578+0000) > > That comment was mostly about internal testing. Diamond/Master level testers that play with/as/against him every day are consistently saying he's a god right now. Yeah, with the new changes, he pretty much is OP right now. With Dead Man's Plate, Boots and Q I'm running around the map with roughly 550 movespeed and anyone I catch is annihilated all the while having unending amounts of HP. Funny how quickly a few changes turn things around. His early game is still weaker than it was but with his ability to farm with E he picks up steam really quickly and then by mid to late game he's annihilating people.
: Dead Man's Plate heading to Summoner's Rift on the PBE
Just played a match on Garen. Seems insanely strong, both on Garen and in general. Late game with boots I activate Q and stack DMP and I'm running around with 547 movespeed. *_* Definitely fun, so I'm not complaining, but I worry that it becomes a must pick across all semi-tanky to tank champs for the ability to get to fights alone. It's basically mobi boots with tank stats. Perhaps it's an attempt to further break up "Top Island" that may become abused by junglers too?
: Garen PBE Changelist and Feedback thread
Just played a match with the new changes. I'm scared that the new changes, combined with Dead Man's Plate, he may be too powerful. I hope not, because I fear the inevitable whittling down to uselessness that happens to champions that are too strong. Running around with 547 movespeed because you have DMP and Q activated seems insane. Plus, you hit like a Mack truck mid to late game. Still don't enjoy the villain system. It's creative but in practice entirely irrelevant to the match. I've spoken on it frequently in this thread so not going to keep harping on it.
: I would like to report a Garen bug: While Garen's Q is active, Garen struggles to walk up to the Enemy Nexus and hit it. I have also noticed the recent PBE Garen changes have also applies this problem to Enemy Inhibitors as well.
> [{quoted}](name=Sageace PBE,realm=PBE,application-id=2EAF660193FA3B668D7234B3AEBB530C5AB7F651,discussion-id=Y7ELMJAK,comment-id=004c,timestamp=2015-08-07T01:58:36.067+0000) > > I would like to report a Garen bug: > > While Garen's Q is active, Garen struggles to walk up to the Enemy Nexus and hit it. I have also noticed the recent PBE Garen changes have also applies this problem to Enemy Inhibitors as well. I reported the same thing in this thread, but Q not working on Nexus is same in live. It's annoying and always has been. If you Q on Nexus, if there's not a minion around to burn it on you're stuck for several seconds. Seems like you're gloating when in reality you can't attack Nexus. I did not experience it on inhibis in the match I just played.
: Garen PBE Changelist and Feedback thread
Any idea when the new changes go live? Would love to try out the spin without the self-slow.
: Man, I didn't even think about the toxicity part. That's a really good point. I also find the portrait really annoying. I honestly hope that they remove it before live. I've found that on a few occasions it really disrupts my laning because it blocks hp bars, it obscures quite a lot of vision (this I only noticed on my laptop), and it's just annoying to have it hovering there. The nameplate area is a bit of a sacred space. It should be as simple and non-obtrusive as possible. it's in the middle of the screen and it's our draws our focus. Only the bare essentials should be there: level, health, and mana/resource. On occasions like kalista and tahm when two champions are on top of one another that portrait is fine. All other information should be imparted through particles or through the icon bars. Having that portrait constantly there breaks that simplicity.
> [{quoted}](name=Zixcik,realm=PBE,application-id=2EAF660193FA3B668D7234B3AEBB530C5AB7F651,discussion-id=Y7ELMJAK,comment-id=00170002000000000000,timestamp=2015-08-06T18:38:13.404+0000) > > Man, I didn't even think about the toxicity part. That's a really good point. > > I also find the portrait really annoying. I honestly hope that they remove it before live. I've found that on a few occasions it really disrupts my laning because it blocks hp bars, it obscures quite a lot of vision (this I only noticed on my laptop), and it's just annoying to have it hovering there. > > The nameplate area is a bit of a sacred space. It should be as simple and non-obtrusive as possible. it's in the middle of the screen and it's our draws our focus. Only the bare essentials should be there: level, health, and mana/resource. On occasions like kalista and tahm when two champions are on top of one another that portrait is fine. All other information should be imparted through particles or through the icon bars. Having that portrait constantly there breaks that simplicity. Agreed 1000% on the nameplate area. Having a face in the middle of the most prime real estate on the screen seems like a major no-no. I'd much prefer it down closer to the UI or have some other indicator.
: On the Villain topic. Yea, I've noticed the same thing playing Garen. I don't really care who has Villain, I just dive the adc same as before. I mean that's the tank/bruiser's job to dive the adc/apc but mostly the adc. If the adc has villain yay if not, whatever. I'm not going after a tank, even with the 1% max health true, it's not going to dent a near full build tank. I mean at 3000 health and if they stay perfectly in the spin that's only 300 true plus some 400-700 physical damage. That's 3 seconds I'm not on the adc and that's 3 seconds the adc has to kill the rest of my team. The only time I notice the villain system is when I give up a kill and it makes a harder for the enemy top laner to snowball off you. I'm not going to say that I dislike the Villain system or even that I want it removed. I just feel that in it's current form it doesn't add anything to the gameplay, and ultimately it's robbing his other abilities of power that would be more useful. That's my two cents. On the Items topic. The new build paths really do force you to play Garen very differently. I have been playing Garen like udyr getting titanic hydra and speedy boots. It works decently well. The one thing is do not get Gage because it's a trap. I know that I say it would be core but that was before play tests. when you Q in and then E by the time Gage procs you've finished E and goes on cd and by the time you have E again Gage's is over and you're either dead or the enemy team is fleeing. IF you wait for gage's to proc the adc has most likely peeled you off and you either have so much cc on you or the adc is so far away that you can't benefit from it. Gage is for more sticky champions like udyr or fizz. Garen will just get kitted away.
> [{quoted}](name=Zixcik,realm=PBE,application-id=2EAF660193FA3B668D7234B3AEBB530C5AB7F651,discussion-id=Y7ELMJAK,comment-id=001700020000,timestamp=2015-08-06T07:39:01.217+0000) > > On the Villain topic. > > Yea, I've noticed the same thing playing Garen. I don't really care who has Villain, I just dive the adc same as before. I mean that's the tank/bruiser's job to dive the adc/apc but mostly the adc. If the adc has villain yay if not, whatever. I'm not going after a tank, even with the 1% max health true, it's not going to dent a near full build tank. I mean at 3000 health and if they stay perfectly in the spin that's only 300 true plus some 400-700 physical damage. That's 3 seconds I'm not on the adc and that's 3 seconds the adc has to kill the rest of my team. The only time I notice the villain system is when I give up a kill and it makes a harder for the enemy top laner to snowball off you. > > I'm not going to say that I dislike the Villain system or even that I want it removed. I just feel that in it's current form it doesn't add anything to the gameplay, and ultimately it's robbing his other abilities of power that would be more useful. That's my two cents. > > On the Items topic. > > The new build paths really do force you to play Garen very differently. I have been playing Garen like udyr getting titanic hydra and speedy boots. It works decently well. > > The one thing is do not get Gage because it's a trap. I know that I say it would be core but that was before play tests. when you Q in and then E by the time Gage procs you've finished E and goes on cd and by the time you have E again Gage's is over and you're either dead or the enemy team is fleeing. IF you wait for gage's to proc the adc has most likely peeled you off and you either have so much cc on you or the adc is so far away that you can't benefit from it. Gage is for more sticky champions like udyr or fizz. Garen will just get kitted away. Sounds like you're experiencing the same thing with the Villain mechanic as I am. Played a few more matches last night, and spectated a few more after that. I overwhelmingly noticed that people/myself ignore the Villain. If I'm in toplane, and the Villain is the ADC, support or jungle, it's almost entirely irrelevant to me. I'm not crossing the entire map or scouring the jungle trying to find that target. So, all I really end up with is an annoying portrait of whoever is doing well on the enemy team. An entirely different point and far more speculative: I think the Villain system opens up more avenues for toxicity. For one, it's a glaring reminder to Garen that someone is kicking your team's ass. That could be irritating. For your team, I can see the team trolling you hard if you attack and fail to kill the Villain ("trolol Garen can't even kill villain") and I also see people jumping your case for not helping them if they're losing their lane hard ("Come on Garen come kill villain! it's your job!").
: @RiotRepertoir: **GAMEPLAY IMPRESSIONS** Played a PBE match with Garen and here are my impressions of the changes for now. **Impressions** - The icon beside your HP bar that indicates who the current Villain is is TOO BIG. Like, way too big. It was freaking me out that I had a Blitzcrank or Lucian icon in the middle of my screen that I couldn't get rid of. Very distracting and covers up valuable real estate on screen. Please move down to the bottom UI. - Judgement does a lot of damage. Like, a lot of damage. Wasn't expecting it to hit that hard minus the crit damage builds, but it hits hard. I did feel like I was missing more minions farming with it though. Just a feeling, but felt like in general the timing wasn't last hitting minions like it usually does so was missing more CS than normal with it. Could be wrong. - Didn't notice the lowered silence on Q. Enemies were dying quickly with Q+E so it was unnoticeable. - You're squishier. The W nerf is noticeable and you're squishier. W was always a one-point wonder and now it gives you 10 flat Armor and MR until the very late game. Combined with the HP nerf you feel squishier. - The Villain mechanic combined with the extra damage on E is fun in the sense that you absolutely demolish someone, but it felt super unnecessary. Felt like ultra-overkill. Great, he died in 3 spins instead of 5. *Shrug* I guess it'd be a tad more impressive if it was on tanks, but most of the time the villain is APC or ADC and in those cases they're squishy. Would love to see replaced with stickiness/speed. The damage is overkill. They run from you regardless of being the target or no. Doesn't feel like it changes the gameplay at all. **Bugs** - E/Judgement doesn't do any damage to dragon. Tried multiple times. I did have the new Gage item so not sure if related to that, but was unable to get E to do damage on dragon. - Had several delays when I ulted and then tried to move into a different attack command. Seemed to only happen on Villain. A bit of a stall if you will. - Q still cannot hit Nexus and cannot be canceled, so if you hit Q while trying to bring down Nexus (like you would on an inhibitor or turret) you're stuck standing there for the full duration of Q unable to kill Nexus. Only option is to find a minion/enemy champion/turret to hit. If none are there, you sit there with nothing to do and look like you're gloating. Either allow Q to hit Nexus like everything else or while Q is active just allow a regular auto-attack to go through. **Items** I did not like the new build path. - Without crit being a desirable stat, there's no clear big ticket item any more. It used to be Infinity Edge which would make Garen go Super Saiyan. Now you're like, "Bloodthirster? Well I don't need lifesteal. Ravenous/Titanic Hydra? I absolutely don't need a single bit of AoE. Trinity Force? Wasted on me." There's not a go-to big ticket damage item like there used to be. Makes the build feel very strange. You get Black Cleaver, you get a bruiser (tanky damage hybrid) item, and then you're sitting there scratching your head. Youmuu's? Nope. Infinity Edge? Nah. I want to do some damage so not really inclined for more tankiness. Last Whisper is okay but not that expensive, and after that it's unclear. The new items do not fill this hole well in my opinion. If I'm using my damage and speediness and bruiser-style to split push, duel, and pick off targets then I'm entirely uninclined to buy the new tank items. - No Sunfire Cape as a core item feels blasphemous and gross. Sunfire = Garen.
I've played more games with him. - Still noticing E/Judgement hitting HARD as the game gets going. - Villain system continues to feel entirely superfluous. Doesn't change how I play whatsoever and I highly doubt it affects anyone else either. I'm hitting hard enough that unless I'm super behind, I don't need it to annihilate someone. Q+E+Ignite+Ulti = dead anyone. If I'm super behind I'm not surviving to my target either way. - Also, to the Villain system: It doesn't feel like I'm a protector. It feels like I'm a sad avenger that's avenging deaths, not protecting people. I understand I'm taking out a valuable target, but it more feels like I'm hunting down my friend's killer and not really protecting anyone. Feels more like something Vayne would have. That's just flavor feedback but thought I'd throw it out there. - Still utterly despise the buildpath. New items aren't enticing at all on him. If I've got to play him in an entirely different way than I have while maining him, then I'd rather play someone else entirely.
: Garen is still the tankiest champion in the game if you build him right. You can't really die late game if you actually tank.
> [{quoted}](name=Uperdown0,realm=PBE,application-id=cMKtzQHY,discussion-id=6BhxsBUt,comment-id=0007,timestamp=2015-08-05T18:27:12.572+0000) > > Garen is still the tankiest champion in the game if you build him right. You can't really die late game if you actually tank. Garen is tanky in the sense that he can take damage. He absolutely sucks at the role of tank. A tank has the ability to disrupt, whether that be in the form of knock ups, slows, taunts, etc. Garen can silence one person and then run around.
: Garen PBE Changelist and Feedback thread
@RiotRepertoir: Please come back and talk. =(
: Darius PBE Changelist and Feedback
@Statikk: I think you've been doing a great job in communicating with and discussing the Darius changes. Would you mind tapping RiotRepertoir and asking him to revisit the Garen feedback thread? Hate to ask of you but would love some more discussion with Riot on those changes in his thread.
: > [{quoted}](name=Calibretto9,realm=PBE,application-id=2EAF660193FA3B668D7234B3AEBB530C5AB7F651,discussion-id=Y7ELMJAK,comment-id=001400010000,timestamp=2015-08-05T01:56:22.261+0000) > > Bull. He did it on stream.
> [{quoted}](name=Delriach,realm=PBE,application-id=2EAF660193FA3B668D7234B3AEBB530C5AB7F651,discussion-id=Y7ELMJAK,comment-id=0014000100000000,timestamp=2015-08-05T04:24:11.059+0000) > > He did it on stream. Yep, you were completely right. @RiotRepertoir: Watch this video please. The concerns of the Garen community from the mouth of one of the best Garens in the game: http://www.twitch.tv/marinerevenge/v/9720630 Meh, link just takes you to his stream but it's under past broadcasts and it's the first video titled "Goodbye Garen."
: the core items should be BC and Gage with Randu and Spirit finish off with GA or Warmogs.
> [{quoted}](name=Zixcik,realm=PBE,application-id=2EAF660193FA3B668D7234B3AEBB530C5AB7F651,discussion-id=Y7ELMJAK,comment-id=00170001,timestamp=2015-08-05T02:15:57.352+0000) > > the core items should be BC and Gage with Randu and Spirit finish off with GA or Warmogs. Yeah, I saw the recommended build in game.
: Though about Maw as a damage item? Gives the most AD in the game apart from SotO. About everything else, I agree. The new tank items don´t fit him. They are nice for Darius, but Garen does not need the mat all, since he barely uses autos anyway and he does not want to teamfight, and he already has his W to block the burst. Yomuu´s could still be good, or you just go full tank to compensate for the W nerf. I still thing they should give the W the % armor/MR back. I really miss the resistences stacking of the old Garen, HP stacking just does not fit him in my opinion. I also don´t get the E movement speed nerf. It really hurts his laneing, as everyone just walks away and reengages after your E ends. It is hard to even get 2 ticks of damage out. Also, I really noticed the reduced silence duration. It really hurt in the Darius matchup. The villan mechanic was weird. The bonus damage was hardly noticeable, except for the true damage ultimate. Also: The E CD nerf is not noticeable. The 2 seconds max are pretty small, and you will get those very rarely.
> [{quoted}](name=FafliX,realm=PBE,application-id=2EAF660193FA3B668D7234B3AEBB530C5AB7F651,discussion-id=Y7ELMJAK,comment-id=00170000,timestamp=2015-08-05T02:08:18.701+0000) > > Though about Maw as a damage item? Gives the most AD in the game apart from SotO. > About everything else, I agree. > > The new tank items don´t fit him. They are nice for Darius, but Garen does not need the mat all, since he barely uses autos anyway and he does not want to teamfight, and he already has his W to block the burst. > > Yomuu´s could still be good, or you just go full tank to compensate for the W nerf. I still thing they should give the W the % armor/MR back. > I really miss the resistences stacking of the old Garen, HP stacking just does not fit him in my opinion. > > I also don´t get the E movement speed nerf. It really hurts his laneing, as everyone just walks away and reengages after your E ends. It is hard to even get 2 ticks of damage out. > > Also, I really noticed the reduced silence duration. It really hurt in the Darius matchup. > > The villan mechanic was weird. The bonus damage was hardly noticeable, except for the true damage ultimate. > > Also: The E CD nerf is not noticeable. The 2 seconds max are pretty small, and you will get those very rarely. I do frequently build Maw on live but situationally. Feels weird building an offense+defensive hybrid item when all I want is damage. I actually did end up building that as my item though, for lack of a better option. Agreed the tank items don't fit him. Youmuu's is good but without the crit it feels way less desirable. E movement speed does hurt. I was so impressed by the extra damage I didn't notice that much but it does make a predictable champ even more predictable and easy to play around. Can see in certain matchups the silence hurting but didn't notice in my match. Agreed 100% on the villain system feeling lackluster and unnoticeable. Cool, shiny lights - the dead guy is extra dead.
: I like the villian system, even when it is so centered around dmg instead of actually catching the villian. The villian should be scared to meet Garen on the field. But currently it seems like a range champ will say "Hi Garen, even with your full item build and me only having boots you will never catch me." I am ok with the silence duration nerf, even when I think 1.6-2.0 sec would still be needed. Or think about reducing the CD every time Garen gets CCed. That way he would have a bit more mobility and the silence would come in small but more frequent waves. Also removing the crit scaling is ok. Moving around some base stats is ok, but the lower HP will hurt him a lot and also the weaker passive. Do you want to force people to buy the Warmogs? His passive was not really that strong till it reached the 2% and even then it was only useful for sieges or when you run around a lot and never go B. It was not like the passive had the potential to turn around a fight or even decide a fight. To the bad things: - W needs way too long to farm up, especially because E > Q > W still applies - you need the Q speed more than ever after the E MS nerf - and in the late game Garen doesn't splitpush and as when the team grps the ADC or the mid laner takes and also needs the farm. So getting to 10 stacks is ok, but getting to 30 is really hard. Also without the tenacity the skill looks underwhelming overall. It should have some kind of MS boost that increases its duration or strength based on the allies/enemies around him. Maybe even take MS from every enemy around him and give that as a short term aura to his team mid fight. Because when it doesn't help him to avoid the CC, it should give him a way to move to the point where he needs to be. - The E changes are horrible. I like the tick increase with his lvls, making the power curve way smoother, but the -20% MS is terrible. That combined with a 1.5 sec silence mid to late game doesn't give the enemy to counterplay Garen, but makes Garen counterplay himself and that is not soemthing Riot should aim for. A champ should not counter himself by trying to do his job. Even if Garen moves nearly into the enemy and the enemy has no mobility skill and no CC and it is a 1v1, he should be able to avoid 1/4th of the ticks if not 1/3rd. That means around 7 ticks at max lvl and that again means that you need 299 AD to get to your old E dmg. So Garen is forced to either get a Frozen Mallet, BC or a teammate that is always at his side only to CC the target he wants to reach. He can't do anything alone except for zoning an enemy away from him (which is not a lot, because a decent ADC can even circle around Garen and Garens control zone is pretty small). - new items and Garen: I think it is only Sterak's Gage which is good for Garen, but at the same time Garen then doesn't want to use his W before the shield activates and he doesn't want to be too tanky or the shield will never proc. Enemies can also easily ignore Garen and his taniness or his dmg because of the way you can kite him around. In the end I would have liked to see Garen having the tools to be the master of his own actions and not lay all the tools into the enemies hands. If the enemy is a bad player, Garen will stomp him. If the enemy has 0 mobility and it is a 1v1 and Garen surprises the enemy he will probably be able to kill him. But in all other situations Garen is not the one in control, but the enemy. **The villian system would be a way to do so, but for that Riot may need to change it a bit. Garen does not only deal % true dmg to the enemy and ults him with true dmg, but also his Q gets a % of the villians MS and scales with its AD (if close) and the W will take a % of the villians Armor/MR and that could be done with Garens AS (passive) and give him more MS the further the Villian is away (1400 range and gives +80 at max range and +0 at 400 range). It would work similar to trundles ult, but instead it does not take the stats away from the enemy, but buff Garen and his abilites based on the enemies stats. So a fast ADC can't get away that easily, a villian at range has it harder to hold him at high range or even hit him with skillshots, a tank has a tanky Garen in front of him that can deal some true dmg and finish him. That would actually change Garens aproach based on who the villian is. Does he get the tankiness from a tank or the MS and dmg from a mobile target or a DD?** Edit: If the W would be good enough to make boots of switness an actual option instead of merc treads, the E slow would not be as problematic. Together with the mastery it would be a 40% slow reduction, meaning only 12% less MS towards champs hit by it. But sacrificing real combat stats and also 2 talent points towards it seems to be a bad option currently because your early game is not really strong when rank 2 and 3 E are falling off and you need AD to make up for it, slow reduction to ne able to actually do the dmg and tank stats because your lower HP and slow scaling W don't offer much power.
I found the W to be retroactive. Like, once I had enough total minions killed, whenever I leveled up the W I automatically got the next upgrade. I didn't have to kill additional minions if I had already reached the next tier requirement. So, for me, by endgame I had plenty of CS so whenever I put a point into W I just was basically getting a free +10 Armor and MR. It makes it weaker and without gameplay than the previous version! LOL. I get less benefit and by the time I level it the farm mini-game is long since completed.
: Gonna address a couple of points I've seen brought up: **E's Slow** Currently it's set to be a 90% slow for 0.75 seconds. It is designed to help ensure that E -> Q is a fairly guaranteed combo. **Lack of an Execution Indicator** We purposely left this out of Darius's update for design reasons. Darius's design and balance actually revolves around his R's success and failures more than any other champion in the game. Because of this when we added an indicator, the Darius gameplay became too much about just reacting to a UI element changing rather than making interesting, risky, and snappy decisions in the heat of battle that might cascade into a pentakill. In a lot of cases we would prefer consistency across our champions, but in the Darius case we feel like the lack of the indicator allows us to retain power in certain areas and makes him more enjoyable in the long run. **Removal of Passive Movement Speed** This is essential to the direction we are moving the Juggernauts. They are intended to be and feel slow, but hopefully have a ton of other strengths to bring to the table to compensate. This change became extremely important to make especially after we changed Hemorrhage to deal physical damage due to the insane synergy Darius now has with Black Cleaver. **Q Delay** Along with Bloodrage, this is the most significant change we made to the kit and we feel it's 100% necessary for the long-term health of the champion. We've struggled in the past to make melee vs. melee combat interesting and skill-based, so this is us trying to address that. I know it can be pretty painful to get used to, but we've tested it pretty thoroughly and feel you guys will be able to get the hang of it. Adding the delay allows us to load more power into the Q (the heal and increased late game damage) without just making him unstoppable in lane and other dueling scenarios.
So, Statikk, played my first PBE match with Darius and have to say he felt in such a brief testing way more fair. Such a powerful champ that was able to frontload so much damage in lane always felt super hokey. Now with the delay on his Q, it feels (even when I'm playing him) like there's some skill involved. And, the enemy has some indication and time to react. Felt good. He feels way slower than normal and it's definitely noticed, especially on an already slow champ. Could be that Trinity Force is a rush item on him (it's frequently built live anyways) for the Movespeed alone. Without I was having a heckuva time catching up to targets. Had to wade into teamfights to start having some impact. But my word, once you reach the teamfights... The nerf-cries are coming. You feel like Oprah. "You get a dunk! And you get a dunk! EVERYBODY GETS A DUNK!!!!"
: Hi! I don't have much to contribute, just a small complaint. With Darius' new Q, he feels SO SLOW now. Old Darius was quick, smooth, and responsive. When you were in a skirmish, you could easily cycle between your spells. He was a stark contrast from the other Noxian war machine, Sion, who is slow and lumbering. Now, the delay makes him feel clunky and sluggish. I thought he was a smart, expert fighter? :p Also, his execute fears creeps now. Thats cool as hell.
> [{quoted}](name=Jackenzie,realm=PBE,application-id=2EAF660193FA3B668D7234B3AEBB530C5AB7F651,discussion-id=Grx91k8I,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2015-08-04T23:54:50.372+0000) > > Hi! I don't have much to contribute, just a small complaint. > With Darius' new Q, he feels SO SLOW now. Old Darius was quick, smooth, and responsive. When you were in a skirmish, you could easily cycle between your spells. He was a stark contrast from the other Noxian war machine, Sion, who is slow and lumbering. > Now, the delay makes him feel clunky and sluggish. I thought he was a smart, expert fighter? :p > > Also, his execute fears creeps now. Thats cool as hell. Came in to comment on the same exact thing. Saw that happen and was like, " Awesome!" Super cool effect, and very appropriate.
: MarineRevenge uninstalled League of Legends after seeing the Garen changes. Let that soak in.
> [{quoted}](name=Erijian,realm=PBE,application-id=2EAF660193FA3B668D7234B3AEBB530C5AB7F651,discussion-id=Y7ELMJAK,comment-id=00140001,timestamp=2015-08-05T01:33:29.473+0000) > > MarineRevenge uninstalled League of Legends after seeing the Garen changes. > > Let that soak in. Bull.
: New Items - Sterak's Gage and Titanic Hydra
When playing Garen I noticed that Sterak's Gage actually LOWERED my listed AD in my stat sheet. I'm sure that's because I technically lost the long sword +10 AD and gained damage per hit, but it's jarring and confusing, especially on first buy. When purchasing an item with damage it shouldn't feel like you're going backwards.
: Garen PBE Changelist and Feedback thread
@RiotRepertoir: **GAMEPLAY IMPRESSIONS** Played a PBE match with Garen and here are my impressions of the changes for now. **Impressions** - The icon beside your HP bar that indicates who the current Villain is is TOO BIG. Like, way too big. It was freaking me out that I had a Blitzcrank or Lucian icon in the middle of my screen that I couldn't get rid of. Very distracting and covers up valuable real estate on screen. Please move down to the bottom UI. - Judgement does a lot of damage. Like, a lot of damage. Wasn't expecting it to hit that hard minus the crit damage builds, but it hits hard. I did feel like I was missing more minions farming with it though. Just a feeling, but felt like in general the timing wasn't last hitting minions like it usually does so was missing more CS than normal with it. Could be wrong. - Didn't notice the lowered silence on Q. Enemies were dying quickly with Q+E so it was unnoticeable. - You're squishier. The W nerf is noticeable and you're squishier. W was always a one-point wonder and now it gives you 10 flat Armor and MR until the very late game. Combined with the HP nerf you feel squishier. - The Villain mechanic combined with the extra damage on E is fun in the sense that you absolutely demolish someone, but it felt super unnecessary. Felt like ultra-overkill. Great, he died in 3 spins instead of 5. *Shrug* I guess it'd be a tad more impressive if it was on tanks, but most of the time the villain is APC or ADC and in those cases they're squishy. Would love to see replaced with stickiness/speed. The damage is overkill. They run from you regardless of being the target or no. Doesn't feel like it changes the gameplay at all. **Bugs** - E/Judgement doesn't do any damage to dragon. Tried multiple times. I did have the new Gage item so not sure if related to that, but was unable to get E to do damage on dragon. - Had several delays when I ulted and then tried to move into a different attack command. Seemed to only happen on Villain. A bit of a stall if you will. - Q still cannot hit Nexus and cannot be canceled, so if you hit Q while trying to bring down Nexus (like you would on an inhibitor or turret) you're stuck standing there for the full duration of Q unable to kill Nexus. Only option is to find a minion/enemy champion/turret to hit. If none are there, you sit there with nothing to do and look like you're gloating. Either allow Q to hit Nexus like everything else or while Q is active just allow a regular auto-attack to go through. **Items** I did not like the new build path. - Without crit being a desirable stat, there's no clear big ticket item any more. It used to be Infinity Edge which would make Garen go Super Saiyan. Now you're like, "Bloodthirster? Well I don't need lifesteal. Ravenous/Titanic Hydra? I absolutely don't need a single bit of AoE. Trinity Force? Wasted on me." There's not a go-to big ticket damage item like there used to be. Makes the build feel very strange. You get Black Cleaver, you get a bruiser (tanky damage hybrid) item, and then you're sitting there scratching your head. Youmuu's? Nope. Infinity Edge? Nah. I want to do some damage so not really inclined for more tankiness. Last Whisper is okay but not that expensive, and after that it's unclear. The new items do not fill this hole well in my opinion. If I'm using my damage and speediness and bruiser-style to split push, duel, and pick off targets then I'm entirely uninclined to buy the new tank items. - No Sunfire Cape as a core item feels blasphemous and gross. Sunfire = Garen.
: > Don't you think some of these changes and the intentions behind them are contrary to how many Garen players actually play and itemize the champion? These changes will bring about changes to Garen's core build. The fact that his old itemization/playstyle doesn't work well with the new kit seems a weak argument. Though he loses scaling with crit chance, he gains a huge buff to his AD ratio on E. Modify that crit build to use high AD items like Maw of Malmortius and Ravenous Hydra, and you ought to get similar results. I'm with you on your last argument, though. Having high damage isn't enough to kill a carry late game, especially now that he lacks tenacity. I'd trade some/all of the bonus damage to that target for a "Righteous Fervor" buff, granted on dealing physical damage to the Villain, that increases his movement towards the target. It could alternatively be more like Vayne's passive movement speed buff, but limited to the Villain. I feel that the increased ult effectiveness against the Villain is excellent thematically, but the 1% on-hit is less fitting. The ability to relentlessly chase down the Villain seems more fitting and would enhance that aspect of the character greatly.
> [{quoted}](name=Hiccup251,realm=PBE,application-id=2EAF660193FA3B668D7234B3AEBB530C5AB7F651,discussion-id=Y7ELMJAK,comment-id=00140000,timestamp=2015-08-04T23:26:17.009+0000) > > These changes will bring about changes to Garen's core build. The fact that his old itemization/playstyle doesn't work well with the new kit seems a weak argument. Though he loses scaling with crit chance, he gains a huge buff to his AD ratio on E. Modify that crit build to use high AD items like Maw of Malmortius and Ravenous Hydra, and you ought to get similar results. > > I'm with you on your last argument, though. Having high damage isn't enough to kill a carry late game, especially now that he lacks tenacity. I'd trade some/all of the bonus damage to that target for a "Righteous Fervor" buff, granted on dealing physical damage to the Villain, that increases his movement towards the target. It could alternatively be more like Vayne's passive movement speed buff, but limited to the Villain. I feel that the increased ult effectiveness against the Villain is excellent thematically, but the 1% on-hit is less fitting. The ability to relentlessly chase down the Villain seems more fitting and would enhance that aspect of the character greatly. I agree with your last statement entirely. I would HAPPILY, HAPPILY trade the damage portion of the Villain passive for a speed buff towards the target. I think that'd make it a lot more fun for both sides. The way it's working now, nothing really changes for either side. Currently if Garen gets to you late game and you can't get him off, you're dead (tanky or no). The problem is sticking to the target. In this new system, if Vayne gets that Villain debuff on her, it's no big deal. She's still going to Condemn Garen away, roll to make distance and light him up. Nothing changes. However, if all of the sudden Garen is mad-dogging her with speed, that changes the game. As Riot said in their notes, that changes the way the game is played by having Garen in the game. Now Garen is an MVP bounty hunter. He doesn't need a damage buff on-Villain, he needs stickiness/closing ability. (P.S.: The mention of building Ravenous Hydra on Garen made me throw up in my mouth. Q+E+Ignite+Ult = very few autos. Hehe)
: OK, I would call myself a Garen main (Mastery 5), and, I like where you're trying to take Garen, but this is in no way at all how to do it. The buffs are nice by all means - more spin ticks (I really like that), the Villain mechanic, yeah. But honestly, I think you could have just added those two and kept all of the other abilities the same and Garen would be what you want him to be while also being strong. Garen's BEST ROLE was the ability to meat shield. His passive and W gave him that perfectly. Why nerf that? The 20% bonus resistances thing was fine - and worked much better than just free resistances for farming. I mean, if you really want that mechanic in, then make it infinite. Then it would be worth something. But the average bruiser Garen gets so much more out of the 20% than just 30 more resistances. Heck, you could just buff his base resistances and get the same effect. And the passive - ok, yeah, I saw a nerf coming on that. But the nerf means SO MUCH MORE when he's so much more squishy. It's not really justifiable now. As for the definitive role you want Garen to take, I like it. You want him to single out the most important enemy and kill them, and that's fine; it's been his role for a while now and you're just making it more clear. But if you really want that, WHY MAKE HIM EVEN **MORE** KITEABLE?? Seriously? I get he needs counterplay and all of that, but he was ALREADY incredibly kiteable (too much I would say, but well, I'm a Garen main). He slows himself when he attacks with his main damage source? Why does that make any sense? And even if that was fixed, why nerf his only CC?? And make the classic crit Garen build not work?? Does this NOT go against what you all are trying to do?? > [{quoted}](name=RiotRepertoir,realm=PBE,application-id=2EAF660193FA3B668D7234B3AEBB530C5AB7F651,discussion-id=Y7ELMJAK,comment-id=000400000000,timestamp=2015-08-04T21:30:44.078+0000) > > If there's any part of the changelist that's too much, I'll be happy to reel it in. All data we have so far suggests that he's at least as powerful as Live with these changes, and likely quite a bit stronger. As for this, Garen doesn't need to be **AT LEAST** as powerful as he is on live now. He needs BUFFS. Very, very large buffs. Something to make him a viable option somewhere other than the depths of bronze. So please, keep the general buffs, but the nerfs are just too much.
I'd happily turn away these "buffs" for them to just leave him as is (if this is the alternative). The idea of him being even more kiteable and there being no more crit Garen is something I'm not even remotely interested in (coming from a fellow level 5 mastery Garen).
: You're talking as if there's no way to take advantage of the buffs he's received. While it's true his E can't crit anymore, this simply means you probably shouldn't itemize for crit anymore. Other flat damage items will be worth much more on him than they used to be due to the enormous AD ratio buff on E.
> [{quoted}](name=Hiccup251,realm=PBE,application-id=2EAF660193FA3B668D7234B3AEBB530C5AB7F651,discussion-id=Y7ELMJAK,comment-id=000e00000000,timestamp=2015-08-04T23:11:54.162+0000) > > You're talking as if there's no way to take advantage of the buffs he's received. While it's true his E can't crit anymore, this simply means you probably shouldn't itemize for crit anymore. Other flat damage items will be worth much more on him than they used to be due to the enormous AD ratio buff on E. So, you're confusing me: According to those patch notes above, the AD ratio on his E is the same at max rank as it was and only very marginally higher on lower ranks. "(Buff) Total Attack Damage Ratio per tick 0.35/0.40/0.45/0.50/0.55 >>> 0.47/0.49/0.51/0.53/0.55" .55 = .55 Am I reading that incorrectly? If I am, then I maintain I'd rather have the crits on hit than a few extra ticks (which serve the same purpose as a tick that does double damage).
: Garen PBE Changelist and Feedback thread
@RiotRepertoir: Don't you think some of these changes and the intentions behind them are contrary to how many Garen players actually play and itemize the champion? Specifically, it seems like the ideas behind the changes are to go hand-in-hand with some of the new items, but those items are entirely unattractive for how many Garen players (including the top ranked Garen players across regions) itemize him. To highlight my point, and for quick reference, I throw a link up to MarineRevenge's ever popular Garen guide on Solomid: http://www.solomid.net/guide/view/43750-garen-build-guide-fighter-by-marinerevenge. Marine has been a bit less active lately but is often the top ranked Garen in NA. Notice a max of one tanky item and all damage and crit. You'll see similar builds, barring a bad game, with other top ranked players across regions. That is, many players build Garen with one or two (at max) tanky items and then the rest all damage. Standard core items being Black Cleaver, Youmuu's, Infinity Edge and Last Whisper. This is how I personally have had the most success with Garen and how I enjoy playing him (he's my main). - Removing crit from E removes the spike damage. More consistent, sure, but with high crit it seems better as is. - Changing the passive on W seems super cumbersome and not fun. I am definitely a player who completely veers away from farming mechanics akin to Nasus, the new Flesheater in Black Market Brawlers, Veigar, etc. It may be easier from a balance perspective, but it doesn't fit thematically and seems like a gameplay cop out to make numbers easier to balance. I am not looking forward to farming minions to get the value out of my W. Much more likely to entirely skip W altogether, especially with Tenacity removal. - Q silence reduction makes sense, as silences are CC in general are awful to be on the bad end of and being silenced while being spun over isn't cool. On board with that change. - Passive nerf makes sense. It's crazy and we all knew that was coming. Garen = Bush-Wolverine. - Ultimate: Not looking forward to a glowing sign of my opponent's head that reads "Avoid Garen at all costs." Garen isn't hard to get off you now as is and that's a major component in his low win rate. As team fights break out, seems like everyone has a way of escaping or knocking you up or back. Now they'll be all the more alert. Also, on the ultimate, was increasing his stickiness to the target considered over increasing the damage? I know the damage components are changing, but doing damage to his target hasn't really ever been the problem. Sticking with them and not having to burn flash for every late game kill definitely is. Would much rather trade in all the true damage (both on hit and ultimate) for some speed or stickiness to my target. Also, that'd tie a bit more in with the whole "perseverance" thing.
: Mordekaiser Change Summary & Feedback Thread
LOL! Morde's movespeed was lowered. That's so hilarious. GG Morde's. Enjoy the ganks. Poor Morde fans. "But I can haz dragonz."
: If there's any part of the changelist that's too much, I'll be happy to reel it in. All data we have so far suggests that he's at least as powerful as Live with these changes, and likely quite a bit stronger.
> [{quoted}](name=RiotRepertoir,realm=PBE,application-id=2EAF660193FA3B668D7234B3AEBB530C5AB7F651,discussion-id=Y7ELMJAK,comment-id=000400000000,timestamp=2015-08-04T21:30:44.078+0000) > > If there's any part of the changelist that's too much, I'll be happy to reel it in. All data we have so far suggests that he's at least as powerful as Live with these changes, and likely quite a bit stronger. "At least as powerful" - What's the point then? If he's "at least as powerful," but no fun factor is really changing, then why? This early impact nerf is definitely going to affect a lot of his counter matchups (Riven, Renekton counter no more). The damage increase on judgement combined with the removal of crit is a wash for Garen's who build crit (Youmuu's, Infinity Edge = core). Sad. Going to play some matches with him now.
: So let me get this straight You nerfed his healing, his damage, his late game bulk, made him MORE kitable, gutted his laning, nerfed his silence, crit spin (no more youmuu's rush), now slows himself with his spin on champions instead of going through units, nerfed his late game hp. So he can have slightly higher base stats (except hp), slightly higher spin damage late game (maybe), and some EXTREMELY situational true damage? Garen is useless unless he gets ahead in lane. His biggest weakness is he gets kited into oblivion so he can't reach squishies. Good bye Garen. Riot has literally no idea what to do with you. so you might as well be removed.
> [{quoted}](name=DrunkenToolShed,realm=PBE,application-id=2EAF660193FA3B668D7234B3AEBB530C5AB7F651,discussion-id=Y7ELMJAK,comment-id=000e,timestamp=2015-08-04T22:00:17.949+0000) > > So let me get this straight > > You nerfed his healing, his damage, his late game bulk, made him MORE kitable, gutted his laning, nerfed his silence, crit spin (no more youmuu's rush), now slows himself with his spin on champions instead of going through units, nerfed his late game hp. > > So he can have slightly higher base stats (except hp), slightly higher spin damage late game (maybe), and some EXTREMELY situational true damage? > > Garen is useless unless he gets ahead in lane. His biggest weakness is he gets kited into oblivion so he can't reach squishies. > > Good bye Garen. Riot has literally no idea what to do with you. so you might as well be removed. Yes, this is pretty upsetting. You mention "slightly higher spin damage late game (maybe)," but by removing crit it's only higher damage for tank Garen. For Garens who build Youmuu's and Infinity Edge, it's a pretty significant nerf to spin damage as well as the spike damage you can surprise people with. Also, way to put a giant flag over your target's head as if to say, "Don't forget to kite one of the most kiteable champs until he's dead or this glowy sword goes away."
: PBE Bugs & Feedback Thread: The rogue slaughter fleet - Aatrox, Garen and Quinn!
Oh wow, the skins as seen on another site look fantastic! Definitely knew I was going to buy them all - they have a LoL mixed with Pirates of the Caribbean feel. Most excited about the Garen skin! Reminds me of X-Men's Cable mixed with the original Obsidian Edged Blade from World of Warcraft. Insta-buy for sure.
: RIOT NO CHAMPION IS VIABLE WITH ZERO HEALTH PER FIVE
Not to be the Debbie Downer, but a lot of this relies on faster reaction times. Seems kind of punishing for those of us on the East coast (NA) who can't play with lower than 100 ms.
: Mastery Changes Coming to PBE
Double Edged Sword - "receive" is misspelled both times in the current version. It says "recieve."

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