: Hi there! We updated the textures a bit, I'd love to get your feedback on it! http://imgur.com/RimYb5m
Oh hey, it's updated in my picture too. For some reason it looked worse on my monitor before I linked it. It certainly is a lot better than it was, but I still think it just looks a little cheap compared to the gold on the Ashe skin or the Sona skin. It's better, but I still couldn't see myself using the skin. Since you responded, there was talk of making the skirt longer and covering up some of the cleavage. Is that still coming? I understand that takes a little bit longer than just changing the color of her legs for tights and changing the colors across the skin. I'm just curious if that was still the plan. If I'm being honest, I'm not sure if anything is going to salvage the skin for me. I just don't think it looks good. And it has nothing to do with Quinn being more girly or showing skin. That could all work if done right. I just don't think it was done right. And touching things up can only take it so far.
: You're absolutely welcome! This is what the PBE posts are for! <3 We always try to. While we can't always change everything, we do our best! Pssst, spoiler. We changed her hair color to be more white/lavender like Sweetheart Sona and Heartseeker Orianna to break away from Star Guardian Lux's hair. :) You should see it in tomorrow's PBE build!
Since you're already comparing her to Sweetheart Sona, is there anything we can do about the gold in Quinn's skin? http://i.imgur.com/2sZyQMR.jpg https://lolskinshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/sweetheart-sona2.jpg Comparing these two images, the gold on Sona's 975 RP skin actually, well, looks like gold. Quinn's looks like a cheap knockoff. The red bits actually look inlaid in the gold on Sona's skin, Quinn's look like a sticker placed on top. Obviously the Sona picture is a little higher quality, but I think the point still stands. Quinn appears to have found a cheap knockoff gold source so she didn't have to shell out the money to actually look good. I think making it more like Sona's would go a long way to making the skin look better. EDIT: Hell, even Heartseeker Ashe has mostly good looking gold on her skin. https://lolskinshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/Heartseeker-Ashe-for-league-of-legends-lol-skin-code-price-rp-ingame-picture-splash-art-model2.png Linking that to make my point since Sona isn't technically part of the heartseeker line.
: If I were to chime in, I think this change is great, finally a chance to outplay rather than only outstat. However I'd love to see a powerspike level 6. Quinn is essentially a decent champion pre 6, but after level 6 you feel a significant power drop. Similar to post 6 Udyr, but not a disgusting ball of free stats, damage and tankiness pre 6. Despite her ult being a stronger roaming tool late game, early-mid game Twisted Fate simply does it much better with far more potent ganks and global true vision is an immeasurably level of utility. I'd love a combat passive similar to Tahm, Rek, Elise, Jayce or Nida. Or another passive/active to compete with the utility of TF's global true vision.
> finally a chance to outplay rather than only outstat. I'd like that, I just don't like the implementation of it.
Rioter Comments
: Illaoi Bug Report Thread
Are the tentacles spawned by your ultimate supposed to be untargetable? Because they aren't, and the ability implies that all tentacles will be.
: Riot Repertoire seems like a reasonable person in a lot of the responses I've seen, so I think there is a good chance they repeal the changes, most other Quinn players I've spoken with have been disappointed by the changes.
He's made it completely clear they aren't going to revert the changes. And, as I've already told you, they aren't catering to Quinn players in this. They want her to have broader appeal.
: The ability to be a strong split pusher is already held by the likes of GP and Tryndamere, both of which have enough dueling power and defenses to survive being alone. Quinn had everything this rework is trying to give her, but with much more power and flexibility in it. You want to go for a base race? Pop Tag Team and shred towers. The enemy carry showed up on a ward alone? Pop tag team and tell that guy to say his prayers. You could do more than just a mediocre split pusher: you could be an assassin, a tower shredder, a late game carry.
> You could do more than just a mediocre split pusher: you could be an assassin, a tower shredder, a late game carry. All of which she still does just fine. I don't know what your experience has been, but she can definitely assassinate just fine, as well as shred towers and carry late game right now on the PBE.
: Quinn PBE Feedback Thread
>Quinn's R has no cooldown, but it feels like it's too Mana gated at the moment for her to live the dream But on the PBE her R got it's mana cost increased, not decreased. That was the only change yesterday. Seems incredibly weird.
: You would almost think stating a plan to remove a large number of the aspects I enjoy about one of my favorite champions had induced a bit of a cynical attitude. Imagine that.
I'm just saying it is rather clear you are biased right now and not judging PBE Quinn on her strengths. They aren't gonna bring back the old Quinn. She is going to get changed. If you actually enter the discussion about what does and doesn't work on her current kit(instead of just bitching about how they ruined your baby) then maybe you can get some changes through. But the way you and many others are acting is the exact definition of 'reacting emotionally' that Riot isn't going to listen to. And keep in mind that Quinn isn't hugely popular. They want to make her a champion with broader appeal. They aren't going to cater to the few Quinn mains if it means keeping Quinn in a state where no one wants to play her.
: I enjoy player her as she is on live, I just got out of a game with her on the PBE and she feels way to linear, it's like I'm playing with half a champion now.
By the way you talked yesterday I think it is pretty clear you didn't come into this with anything approaching an open mind.
: I played with Quinn now, and i'll stop. She's now just a boring champion with nothing special, she's weak, she lost's her damage,blind, all :/ I really like play with the Old Quinn, but now.. I hate, she's so weak, just a little Shooter in the game, with no damage. Riot, please do something! R.I.P {{champion:133}}
> [{quoted}](name=Tum Khung,realm=PBE,application-id=2EAF660193FA3B668D7234B3AEBB530C5AB7F651,discussion-id=PE1LJTOM,comment-id=00ba,timestamp=2015-10-29T22:01:10.595+0000) > > I played with Quinn now, and i'll stop. > She's now just a boring champion with nothing special, she's weak, she lost's her damage,blind, all :/ > I really like play with the Old Quinn, but now.. I hate, she's so weak, just a little Shooter in the game, with no damage. > Riot, please do something! R.I.P {{champion:133}} I don't know how you built her, but she is not weak. She can dish out a lot of damage for sure.
: It doesn't seem like anyone feels these changes are promising, I've played quite a bit of mid lane Quinn as well, I've dominated games with it and the high risk for high reward roams are one of the best parts. I would much rather have the high cool down ult as it is than these changes, I think I'd still rather play current Quinn than the new one even if her ult cool down was 8 minutes.
> It doesn't seem like anyone feels these changes are promising. I love the new Quinn. I didn't think I would, but I certainly enjoy playing her. There are some big problems with her, but I am someone who does find these changes promising. So you shouldn't say we don't exist. Edit: "No one likes these changes. Oh, you do? Better downvote that, because it goes against the circlejerk that she is horrible now."
: ***
I'd argue that she isn't weaker, just that her strength has shifted to different places.
: Quinn PBE Feedback Thread
I'll give more feedback when I get more time to play, but I'll list my first impressions on everything. R - The movement part of the ult feels really really nice. I wasn't sold on it yesterday, but I love it. I move around the map so quickly on no cooldown. I definitely feel like she has insane map pressure. I felt impactful. Edit: I don't know if it was lag or what, but I kept getting caught on things with my ult active. I did not like how ridiculous I looked. Not one bit. I feel silly. I especially miss flying around as Valor like before. My opinion has not changed from before. I would much rather tag out with Valor. My friend suggested surfing on Valor's back, which would be funny. But probably too much animation work. But as it is right now, Valor is a pet, not a team mate like he was before the rework. I also have to reiterate what I said yesterday. Skystrike feels pretty horrible to use. If I used my E to activate it, I could fairly consistently get the damage to hit(Edit:Apparently I'm crazy because now it doesn't ever proc off E). But most times when I come out of ult I don't immediately want to E. If I am assassinating I would rather Auto passive proc, E, AA passive proc, Q, AA passive proc. I also didn't want to open with E when I was teamfighting as I was very fragile. And when I opened with an auto instead of E I was not able to consistently hit my ult. Probably 1/10 times when using it like that. **Skystrike feels like an ability for a melee champion.** I think the power budget should be spent literally anywhere else. Q - I like the wave clear aspect. The application of the passive was a bit tricky to get in lane, but was really nice when done well. There wasn't anything I really disliked. I find myself trying to use it to blind when I really shouldn't. That is just habit and not anything really wrong with the spell though. I was slightly sad that the base damage got nerfed, but the execute feels pretty good to use. W - Basically the same as before, so it felt fine. E - I like the speed of the E, but I had about 4 times in my one game where I E'd someone and didn't vault backwards off of them. 2 were coming out of ult and 2 were not. Passive - I wasn't sure when it scaled from 125% of AD to 150% of AD, but it felt good. I assume it was when I got infinity edge(Edit:I see now it scales over time)? Getting down to a 4 second cooldown felt really good on the passive. I do think it hits slightly less hard for a good portion of the game, but it is made up for by the much shorter cooldown with crit chance. TL;DR: Quinn feels extremely strong. Assassination potential is definitely still in kit. Movement part of ult=Good. Skystrike=Really really uncomfortable/awkward to use, and just feels bad. Ult animation looks ridiculous and doesn't convey Tag Team the way it did before. Overall:Quite happy as a Quinn player.
: should probably let graves multi-hit wards. hitting a ward and killing a champ is slick and all... but how is graves going to kill wards with nobody assisting?
I don't understand. If he has vision he just keeps autoing until it is dead. If it just got placed he couldn't kill it anyway before it disappeared. So he is exactly like every other ADC in this respect.
: Quinn PBE Feedback Thread
>I believe this concern results from the fact that various players have different visions for what Quinn's identity is But we can all pretty much agree that her identity included being a Tag Team with Valor, right? I mean, that is literally the Ultimate's name. They felt more like partners who had things to do. You've reduced Valor to being a pet/mount/hang glider. I'd much rather fly around as Valor in the ultimate than be carried. The screencap looks ridiculous, but the entire thought is just silly and removes one of the core aspects of playing as Quinn and Valor.
: I'm not talking about her numbers, she can come out stronger and remain un-nerfed but that doesn't change the fact that it's such a drastic departure from the champion that I currently enjoy playing. As for the statement about her ult, she already gains great roaming potential with it, the zero cool down part doesn't really interest me because the ability to roam more effectively is far better than the ability to roam more often. TF is one of the few champions currently that can match Quinns roaming, and compared to Quinns current ult, TF's is weaker, it's a soft level because it offers no boost in combat stats only strategic benefit because of the ability to pick 1 sided fights. Quinn can already do this, but also has the ability with her ult to all in her lane opponent with the same ability. The part that makes this ultimate weak is that unlike TF or Shen ult, this can be cancelled with auto attacks, is a speed boost, not a teleport, and does not offer any additional utility, making the suggested ult far weaker.
>I'm not talking about her numbers, >with the change from base damage with partial scaling to scaling entirely off of Quinns AD you are likely to do about the same damage with a double proc now as with 3 >more autos for comparable damage >Having the execute on a basic ability will require it to be weaker due to power budgeting Very clearly making assumptions based on numbers we don't have. But sure, downvote me for pointing out what you are doing. >the zero cool down part doesn't really interest me because the ability to roam more effectively is far better than the ability to roam more often He says, without trying out the new kit at all. I think you greatly underestimate the power of map pressure. I don't like the change but I very much see the strength of it. >The part that makes this ultimate weak is that unlike TF or Shen ult, this can be cancelled with auto attacks If you have decent map awareness you should be able to get anywhere you want without having it be cancelled. >is a speed boost From what they are saying it is a pretty incredible speed boost. I don't think it is fair for you to dismiss how useful it is without seeing anything. >and does not offer any additional utility, making the suggested ult far weaker. Map pressure on a zero cooldown ability is utility. And not having a lot of additional power opens them up to make the rest of her kit stronger. I actually think they should remove Skystrike just to add additional power to somewhere else on her kit, which would make her ultimate even weaker.
: > [{quoted}](name=Lord Fluffy,realm=PBE,application-id=2EAF660193FA3B668D7234B3AEBB530C5AB7F651,discussion-id=80evtUUR,comment-id=00000000000000000000,timestamp=2015-10-29T02:07:03.841+0000) > > Having to wait ~4 seconds is not, by any definition, quick. But I wasn't entirely clear on what I meant. I more meant you could land 3 as soon as 1 shows up on them, since most people move away when Valor marks them. Especially now that you can land more passive procs easier. with the change from base damage with partial scaling to scaling entirely off of Quinns AD you are likely to do about the same damage with a double proc now as with 3 with the changes at least in the laning phase, having her scale better damage wise into the late game doesn't really make sense because her short range is better suited to smaller skirmishes and her late game is already very good > > And if her current mechanics carry over then wouldn't you just be able to do the same thing you described but with 4 procs? > same issue, more autos for comparable damage, longer trades aren't good for short range AD champions. > Elsewhere you replied to me and I don't feel like doing two comments to you so I'll condense them. > > They are going to move damage around on her kit so that any base damage reduction doesn't matter in the long run. > > And moved it to her Q, which has higher base and ratio damage than ult(barring any significant changes). Plus now you don't have to make the decision to stay in melee(which is dangerous for how squishy you are) just to wait on the execute getting strong enough to finish someone off. > > The absolutely insane amount of movement speed you get with it should get you close enough. > The ult is interrupted by an auto attack, and getting close now has no point as the assassination potential isn't there on the ult anyway. Having the execute on a basic ability will require it to be weaker due to power budgeting, so trading the blind for this isn't exactly exciting. > It more hurts her dueling as Valor because you don't get the double W attack speed, but her assassination should still be strong. Open with Skystrike, passive proc, e, passive proc, execute Q, passive proc. That is going to be quite a lot of damage, especially since her passive is going to scale better into the late game. And the cooldown for her passive starts out lower than it currently is and gets reduced from there by Crit Strike. So you should be able to proc passive much more often in the late game. > > I do doubt they are keeping the mechanic of CDR on passive from proccing passive though. Quinn already does quite a bit of damage, the issue isn't so much about the strict amount of damage it's about how her kit and playstyle is being changed so drastically, like if they want to try again at making an ADC with high map pressure why not leave Quinn alone and release a new champ, I want my weird fighter/assassin that goes into melee form and chases people down as a giant bird, not a boring ADC that uses a bird as a hang glider. She has one of the best level 6 power spikes in the game, but this would make it one of the worst, that is such a drastic change. They had the right idea when they did the Nidalee rework, preserve the core parts of the champion while adding new interactions to them so that the feel more rewarding to play, not more linear, like why not bonus damage if you E a blinded opponent or some interaction between remaining marks of Harrier when you swap to Valor. Why not have E reset on kill to allow her to remain mobile after a kill?
You seem to be making a lot of assumptions that we have no basis for on her actual numbers. Your argument at many points devolves into "she'll be weaker because *insert speculation." I'm not gonna bother arguing with you on numbers, because she is set to hit the PBE within 24 hours. So what is the point in speculating on her numbers. >She has one of the best level 6 power spikes in the game, but this would make it one of the worst, that is such a drastic change. Holy shit, I don't like her ult change but you seriously can't argue that the map pressure she gains on an ability with literally no cooldown is one of the worst power spikes in the game, can you? It isn't a damage powerspike, but it certainly is a huge map pressure powerspike. Quinn could already roam rather quickly at 6, and now she roams so much faster. I'm not entirely certain on the difference between the bonus movement speed her current ult gives and the _total movement speed_ her new ult will give. But at worst it 10% less movement speed at level 6 and scales to be much more later. But it has no cooldown, so any time you aren't in lane the other lanes have to be scared. Next you'll be telling me TF level 6 isn't incredibly strong because he doesn't get to deal damage with it.
: You can already proc the passive 3 times in quick succession, you wait until a few seconds before it runs out, E to reapply it, then after that the passive re-applies again to the same target because you recently auto attacked them. The blind is also pretty huge in duels, losing that shouldn't be understated. Her execute is a huge threat during the laning phase, it catches people off guard all the time, it has as high of a cool down as it does because it's that good as an ability.
>You can already proc the passive 3 times in quick succession, you wait until a few seconds before it runs out Having to wait ~4 seconds is not, by any definition, quick. But I wasn't entirely clear on what I meant. I more meant you could land 3 as soon as 1 shows up on them, since most people move away when Valor marks them. Especially now that you can land more passive procs easier. And if her current mechanics carry over then wouldn't you just be able to do the same thing you described but with 4 procs? Elsewhere you replied to me and I don't feel like doing two comments to you so I'll condense them. >The changes would reduce her ults base damage, They are going to move damage around on her kit so that any base damage reduction doesn't matter in the long run. >remove the execute component And moved it to her Q, which has higher base and ratio damage than ult(barring any significant changes). Plus now you don't have to make the decision to stay in melee(which is dangerous for how squishy you are) just to wait on the execute getting strong enough to finish someone off. >keep her from gap closing with it active, The absolutely insane amount of movement speed you get with it should get you close enough. >all of this hurts her assassination potential quite a bit. It more hurts her dueling as Valor because you don't get the double W attack speed, but her assassination should still be strong. Open with Skystrike, passive proc, e, passive proc, execute Q, passive proc. That is going to be quite a lot of damage, especially since her passive is going to scale better into the late game. And the cooldown for her passive starts out lower than it currently is and gets reduced from there by Crit Strike. So you should be able to proc passive much more often in the late game. I do doubt they are keeping the mechanic of CDR on passive from proccing passive though.
: So Q was changed from a kit-defining skill with an interesting mechanic (blind) to one of the most generic skillshots in the game? Without major compensation elsewhere? Ut oh. Poor Quinn.
>So Q was changed from a kit-defining skill Her Q was not kit-defining. Having a skill shot blind just meant you were better at fighting ADCs when you managed to hit it. Vault is way more kit defining. Proccing her passive was a huge part of her strength and arguably defined part of her kit. Her ult is a huge kit-defining feature and they absolutely gutted that. But Blinding Assault was just a generic AOE skillshot that happened to blind if it hit. Her kit was in no way defined by the blind. >Without major compensation elsewhere? Obviously we don't have numbers on it, but the ability to proc Quinn's passive a third time in quick succession is most definitely a "major compensation." On top of that, it is much much better for wave clear, something Quinn didn't do very well. And it does more damage if they are lower health. As a Quinn player, I don't agree with their changes to ult. But she has been more than compensated for the removal of her blind.
: And what if the portion of people who don't like the changes is "most of the core quinn playerbase"? Again, I'll reserve my true judgement till I've played about 20 games with her. I'm not saying this necessarily WILL be bad, just that I fear this being a Karma 2, where even less people play her now than did before, because it alienated her core playerbase without making her appealing to new karma players. All I ask is that you value the opinions of the Quinn playerbase, weather that's "we like it" or we hate it" over the general public's, and even your own judgements. I don't want to sound like an egotist, but I believe a champion belongs to the mains and one trick ponies more than anyone else.
In Riot's defense, they shouldn't listen exclusively to current Quinn players. If current Quinn players want something that most other members of the community wouldn't want, Riot would rather ignore Quinn players to take her from a niche pick to something with broader appeal to the player base. I think there is room to appeal to both, and I am a Quinn player so I will be sad if certain aspects of her kit go for good. And I will certainly complain about some of it. But I understand that, at the end of the day, Riot is trying to make the champion more viable, and so will listen to the community at large instead of the relatively small Quinn playerbase.
: They have already stated that Quinn is most likely going to be better in mid lane than in top or bottom. They are already pushing her as a solo laner, so you needn't worry about that. The only real difference right now seems to be that she will lose her assassination potential (which is fine, honestly.)
I think Riot said they think her assassination potential is still going to be there, if not better than before. You should have pretty high burst damage if you proc your passive 3 times, especially later in the game when you get more AD.
: The build isn't really the focus here, it was her ability to duel pretty much anyone if played right, and to assassinate high priority targets. These changes reduce her threat in lane by quite a bit, and her roaming was already great, probably better with the execute since once you got to the side lane you could put more pressure on the enemy, the ability to roam more often doesn't really balance this out.
>These changes reduce her threat in lane by quite a bit That isn't necessarily true. You can now proc your passive 3 times in relatively quick succession. And the passive is supposed to be getting better at targeting(selection and speed of target acquisition). I'm not a huge fan of the changes as they've been listed, but I don't think she is significantly weaker in lane than she was before this. Not having the blind sucks, but 3 quick passive procs is going to hurt anyone.
: What about Gnar, and Quinn? Those are two fairly big top laners. And what about ranged junglers? You literally just released a ranged jungler.
>What about Gnar, and Quinn? Those are two fairly big top laners. Well, Quinn isn't a top laner anymore. They are balancing her around mid lane.
: No. A new trap will not trigger on a trapped champion unless they stand on it for quite a while (4 sec?) or move off and back on. Would love feel feedback on this when she hits PBE tonight.
>Would love feel feedback on this when she hits PBE tonight. Are these changes hitting the PBE tonight? I've seen a few saying tonight and a few saying tomorrow, so now I'm not sure which it is.
: > What made you guys decide to make Valor only fly above quinn basically carrying her around the map, instead of replacing her for a bit and getting to fly freely? We thought this was truer to the spirit of the ability (Tag Team), as well as a better explanation for why they combo doesn't attack during this time. > I'm excited for the changes but I fear that with the loss of blind and any significant dmg on her ult she will loose what little power she had. That's an understandable concern (and a concern that a lot of other players seem to share), but we are confident we can make this character very powerful. If the numbers aren't right on the first pass, we'll get them there.
> We thought this was truer to the spirit of the ability (Tag Team), as well as a better explanation for why they combo doesn't attack during this time. Isn't a Tag Team where you switch places with someone? You tag out of a fight to let your buddy have a turn. And you said earlier that you kept the Skystrike part of the ult because "but we thought it was something that players would be attached to". But personally I was more attached to switching places with Valor and then fighting people. And if you are neutering the execute damage on her ult, I don't really see much point in leaving Skystrike in. I'd much rather that power budget be spent elsewhere and then get to fly around as _just_ Valor with the ult. Being Valor was the part I was more attached to. The AOE execute was nice, but you removed the execute, which was the only really interesting part of it for me. I haven't seen what she looks like flying around yet(obviously), but that was just my first thought upon hearing these changes. > That's an understandable concern (and a concern that a lot of other players seem to share), but we are confident we can make this character very powerful. If the numbers aren't right on the first pass, we'll get them there. I just have to reiterate. Based on what we know at this point, I'd much rather take Skystrike out of the kit and use that power budget elsewhere. Maybe that isn't possible, as it would make her too much stronger without using her ult. But the AOE had very little to do with why I liked the ultimate. I just want to fly around as a bird. I bought the Corsair skin so I could fly around as a bird with an eye patch. I think it would be much cooler to just keep the ult how it is(with respect to swapping places). I liked that they were a team that each had their own stuff to do. **Now Valor is just a tool or pet Quinn uses, not a full fledged team member.** Perhaps I am speaking from an emotional place. But I still think that you focused on the wrong part of the ult as what players would be attached too.
: So because I disagree with you I'm wrong and don't understand the champion? Zyra is a strong champion. A strong support champion. Not a mid laner champion. End of story. Her kit does not let he fulfill the role of a midlaner so putting her in that role gimps her team. P.S. It's not just me buddy, I asked a top 20 chall mate of mine who is one of the best analysts I know: http://gyazo.com/953ff6b8d1f7880559fa5899d50a9c2f Without any prompt he said the same thing I did, the exact same thing. It's just a known fact to good analysts when you follow logic.
And analysts can never ever be wrong, can they? Except all those times professional analysts have said things about champions and ended up being proven wrong. But lets ignore that. Also, anonymous pictures of skype conversations are totally great evidence of your point. I mean, I could easily make one and then say it is Faker having a conversation with me about how good Zyra is as a midlaner, but yours is probably totally what you say it is. And despite it being impossible to prove that you didn't prompt him, let us believe that too. /s I just don't get how she has zero pressure on the back line. Because in all the games I've played of it that isn't true, and in all the math others have shown you here it isn't true. And it isn't something that is required for a mid laner. There is this thing called team comps, and you can build them around different things. Zyra shreds tanks and has the burst to destroy the backline as well. If you have a top laner who can dive while you demolish the front line, that is fine. No one is arguing that she is top tier. We just can't fathom why you wont even include her as a possible solo queue mid lane mage. She has so much going for her against an uncoordinated team, especially in this meta of tank junglers who can peel and cc for you. I think she could be a niche pick in competitive, but I certainly don't think she is anywhere near top tier there. I just think she can function. And I'm willing to concede I could be wrong on that. You just keep giving vague answers or moving the goalpost when someone counters your points though, so this is gonna be my last reply to you. I'm gonna keep getting freelo with her and you are gonna keep underestimating her. That just leads to me getting more freelo, since people don't realize what she can do.
: So because I argued logical points that I'm sticking to because you haven't debunked them, I'm only willing to see them from one side? I'm a professional coach and Analyst, and more than that I'm well known for thinking outside the box. I give every build, every idea, a chance. I gave Zyra mid a chance but her flaws are too obvious and painful, and I read your points with an open mind but you're saying the same thing over and over again when I've already told you the problem with Zyra. You don't want to believe me? Fine. Zyra hasn't been played mid -at all- in competetive since her release, and there's a reason for that. It's not item builds. It's the kit she has. It's her numbers. It's the role that mid lane has to take in a game.
You are incorrect. Vel doesn't have low base movespeed. Him and Malz have the highest it is possible for a ranged character to have(outside of Gnar past a certain level.) Vel is also an incredible fighter and you can easily carry games. Malzahar has problems because he stuns himself right near his opponent. Vel can pick amazing and safe positions to ult from to win fights. If someone on your team ccs you can use your e and then ult while they can't move. If you are in danger of getting jumped on you don't actually have to ult to win fights. Vel'Koz is also great at kiting. It is incredibly hard to catch him and his team in a position they don't want to be caught in.
: Because a mid laners job is dealing with the carries. Zyra's entire kit mid-late game wise is only useful for peeling/disengaging. Even with it's amazing burst, you won't catch a carry in it 99% of the time, making her inconsistent.
You wont catch them 99% of the time. Don't assume the rest of us wont. Because I consistently can get damage onto the carries. I'm really sorry you can't even conceive of Zyra doing well, but that doesn't mean she can't. You obviously just don't know how to play her if you think she can't.
: In a proper, coordinated game she cannot. Anyone can get to diamond, or probably even chall, with any champion. That doesn't make that champion strong. Hell, Mid Zyra is ok, but just the fact that she doesn't do the job of a mid laner lets her down. If you were playing a triple threat comp you could play Zyra, but then again there's other champs that just do her job better even in that comp. Her kit matches a support champion, and these items changes aren't going to affect that.
> Hell, Mid Zyra is ok, but just the fact that she doesn't do the job of a mid laner lets her down. I still think that is just completely untrue. She has poke, she has sustained damage on par or better than most midlaners. She has incredible burst. How does she NOT do the job of a midlaner?
: Mid lane Zyra isn't a thing for a reason, she has no way of killing carries. She's basically a poor man's Orianna. Too inconsistent. Sadly these buffs won't change that. The only time she was picked mid was when her numbers were so broken it didn't matter that she was an inefficient mid pick.
I play her mid lane in low diamond. She can easily kill carries. She also destroys tanks.
: Already strong champions that are buffed with these changes: Rumble Cass Vlad Kog Ekko Champs to look out for with these changes: Velkoz Swain Ahri Karma Anivia Honourable Mentions: Mordekaiser Karthus Malzahar Corki Singed [EDIT] Teemo Zyra - Specifically didn't add Zyra because in mid lane she's not really viable, and as support she's only good in solo Q. Deserves to be on the list though.
As a Vel'Koz mid main these are terrifying changes. I already do the most damage in 90% of my games by a large margin. Nearly everything I build got buffed except Zhonyas. I don't generally build Rabadon's, but I might have to start with that 35% amp. Morrello's into Mejai's. Void Liandry's Zhonyas. General build. At some point in my climb I am probably going to have to switch out the Mejai's, but so far no one really gets onto me. That is probably where I'll fit the DCap in. I think Zyra is a champion you need to add to your list though. She is already incredibly strong in the hands of someone who is skilled with her. This is just going to make her hurt a lot.
: > I don't really see how this diversifies the possible builds for AP Itemization tbh. Imo those who built RoA will still buy it, and those who built Luden/Deathcap will still buy them too. I actually agree that we might need to go harder on this direction - but the reason I'm doing a light pass instead of something fairly heavy is that I really want to see if I like the overall direction on the game. There's some rough bits (the triple components) that I can't smooth with the time that I have (and there's a serious gap in AP/CDR without Mana) but I'd like to take this step by step. > (already can see Rylai being quite oppressive on Cho) His 'E' is an AoE spell isn't it? Eeeeugh. Well - I guess it's really no worse than Frozen Mallet.... I think? *hides*
Just rework Cho's passive so he doesn't hyper sustain in any lane that can't poke forever. Can't tell you the amount of times I've gone OOM trying to poke him down and then he just heals back up super easy, then bursts me down because he finally hit a combo. I know that probably isn't anywhere close to your purview. I just like to rant about him lol.
: > [{quoted}](name=Battle Maiden,realm=PBE,application-id=2EAF660193FA3B668D7234B3AEBB530C5AB7F651,discussion-id=oAE3WLud,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2015-06-13T09:04:34.780+0000) > > There is absolutely no need to remove magus, there is over 120 champions in the game and some of them still benefit from it, upcoming champions may also use it. Just make add the new enchantment without removing the old one Actually its good on any ap jungler. This runeglaive I see being useful on Diana and thats it.
That's not true. If Diana isn't behind she prefers Magus because her clear isn't mana intensive and is really fast. Lulu jungle really likes Runeglaive though. Ekko might like it, because he goes through mana so fast in the jungle. Karma jungle likes it. Lissandra. AP Poppy, if that floats your boat. Viktor jungle. These are just people I've tried it out on and it improves their midgame significantly.
: Fiddlesticks was the champion that most stuck out to us as someone who may be worse off with the Runeglaive enchant instead of Magus. We think that Runeglaive provides a lot more value to him than you'd expect (in particular, the mana restore is pretty juicy for him). But we've also seen a long history of jungle Fiddlesticks players succeeding without even upgrading their Machete into the Magus enchant on live. Fid is somewhat of an outlier when it comes to his jungling pattern and optimal itemization, so we decided that as long as he still has item routes that support him, we'd try to make Runeglaive more broadly applicable to a wider range of AP Junglers.
Also, in addition to my other comment. You just completely shut out the potential of non mana AP junglers. I play jungle Kennen sometimes, and now I can't play him AP. I've played against Akali jungles. We are just getting rid of AP and CDR for a little bit of AOE clear and some mana/mana regen. So champions that don't use mana are hurt quite a bit by this. AP Kayle has fairly long cooldowns, low mana usage on clear and doesn't need help clearing. To effectively use this item she would need to start using W and Q more in clears. She would then need more mana regen than this item actually provides to make up for the costs. And we don't know how the meta is going to change in the future. Maybe Vlad(probably not the best example) somehow becomes a jungler? This item is worse than Magus in every way for Vladimir jungle. Please please please stop limiting our options. Just add Runeglaive as an additional item and leave Magus alone, or give AP junglers another option.
: Fiddlesticks was the champion that most stuck out to us as someone who may be worse off with the Runeglaive enchant instead of Magus. We think that Runeglaive provides a lot more value to him than you'd expect (in particular, the mana restore is pretty juicy for him). But we've also seen a long history of jungle Fiddlesticks players succeeding without even upgrading their Machete into the Magus enchant on live. Fid is somewhat of an outlier when it comes to his jungling pattern and optimal itemization, so we decided that as long as he still has item routes that support him, we'd try to make Runeglaive more broadly applicable to a wider range of AP Junglers.
I'm not sure why we can't have the option though. There are many instances where my jungle Diana would prefer the higher AP and more CDR out of Magus than Runeglaive. I can also see getting Runeglaive if I am falling behind. But she already clears amazingly well and doesn't need mana regen in the jungle when she gets ahead. Karthus jungle, I can see making a choice between the two, but I think the majority of the time you want Magus because you are already getting Tear. Full AP Eve doesn't need mana regen and she already clears fast. I could see getting the item sometimes, but it certainly would be preferable to get Magus a lot of the time. AP Zac doesn't want Runeglaive. It should be fairly obvious why. I don't need to explain the reasoning behind Fiddle, because it is already explained. This item opens up diversity in the jungle. It really does. I just don't see the reason to take away an item from existing AP jungles just to broaden it. We could have both and make tactical decisions on when to use either one. And if it turns out I am incorrect and Magus actually does never get used, you then have playerbase statistics to back it up. But I just can't see a compelling reason to remove instead of adding a second AP item. Edit: Also, the majority of AP junglers I've tried have problems with their first clear. I used to play Lulu jungle in season 4 and literally cannot anymore because I can only barely get through the first clear with a leash. And since you can't always get a perfect leash, or an invade may get you low, I cannot play her anymore. The point being, this item probably opens up less diversity than I thought, because that first clear is still so hard. So the people that need runeglaive can't even get to the point where they can use it.
: Why remove magus instead of just adding another enchant to satisfy both types of AP jungle mages?
This completely screws over Fiddlesticks jungle. He is not someone who wants a sheen item jungle. I'd argue that Diana would prefer the extra 10% cdr and the 40 AP, because she certainly needs no help clearing. This might bring back a few jungles I used to play last season, like Lulu. But I just don't see the point in replacing the AP item. I will honestly be disappointed in Riot if this goes live without another AP jungle item.
: Azir, the Emperor of the Sands
Was it an intentional change to not let Azir proc on-hit effects without losing clone dps? Nashor's tooth is recommended, but he can't use the passive at all. It is gold efficient because of his passive and kit, but it still seems weird. And he is completely locked out of using sheen items. I'm actually enjoying Azir as a jungler, but not being able to proc red buff if they are in range of your clones really hurts. I think he is the only champion that can't use a red buff effectively if they get one. Also, having your clones near the inhib/nexus(and presumably tower when the change happens) prevents you from autoing, as your clones can't attack but they cancel your autos from being in range.
: From the lore perspective, it wouldn't make sense for it to be at all controllable. Gnar transforms when he gets angry, and combat makes people angry. Gnar hasn't exactly spent as much time meditating as Yi.
And from a gameplay perspective, it feels really bad if you start to lose lane and cannot harass and farm because you will be forced into melee form that you don't want to be in. Hell, if they are able to keep you in combat 100% of the time, just farming becomes an issue against someone you are losing to. I do not especially care about the lore. I care about the gameplay.
: See I have been looking at people making this point out in many different threads but thats the whole point of not being able to control the transformation. It whats make this champion so much more fun... It gives me goosebumps when I play him, because there is a new challenge for me. I have to make my decisions based on something that is going to happen. Make the plays accordingly. If you get outplayed, you get outplayed. You can not win ALL games just because he is a new champion.
> You can not win ALL games just because he is a new champion. That isn't at all the issue I have with him. The problems I'm running into are if you lose lane, you lose all ability to trade back damage. You cannot harass for fear of the forcing you into your slow melee form. So you can only farm. If they shove you hard enough they can force you to transform just from your farming.
: Yes, you're intended to be able to use the Little Gnar form bouncing E as you transform into Mega Gnar. Big plays baby. Also, yes the boulder is supposed to splash.
You definitely need to make that more clear. I thought it was a bug because the icon changes colors and it was confusing. I'm still not sure if I'm doing damage as Big Gnar at that point or not. The spell bounces me, does it also give me the bonus attack speed? I think it slows everyone around me, but I'm not 100% positive. Also, you might want to specify that the returning boomerang does not do damage if it has already done damage. It just seems unintuitive with Ahri and Sivir not working that way. So you should probably state it. Another problem I have with him, and I don't know that this can be addressed at all, is that your enemy can control you much easier than any other champion. Say you want to trade with someone, you progress towards transforming. And if the enemy knows you don't want to transform, then they can manhandle you at that point. I'm okay with this part, I guess, but not the other part of this scenario where they can force you to transform just by keeping you in combat 24/7. So you either zone yourself or get forced into melee form. I'm not a huge fan of the limiting your harass or you force yourself into a melee form, but I absolutely will not play a champion that cannot harass and farm at all for fear of his opponent forcing him into melee form at a bad time. Also, you might want to put it on the passive tooltip that you don't generate rage for 10 seconds after transforming.

Best Quinn Mid

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