: How do you see the Banshee/Abyssal swap for Assassins *building* them? Champs like fizz, diana, ahri loved abyssal because it gave AP, MR, CDR and damage amp. Now, if they build banshee they will get offensive stats and a shield that can help them a lot when engaging (much like Edge of the Night for AD assassins), while building Abyssal they'll get damage amp and defensive stats... ok, I guess that won't be an interesting item for them anymore. So, changing question: do you think giving Banshee to assassins will be too much? (OTOH, it would compensate the nerf they get as a class from the new GA and banshee itself being around)
They have already stated that ap assassins build pattern is very simillar to burst mages, so new Banshee's will be used on both mages and assassins, and to supress the same kind of damage (burst), and this will probably even the game. I still think the current stats are too good and the build is especially too smooth, so I believe they will still change this to make it not be an optimal buy on every ap user in every moment of the game.
: still nothing planned for Ninja Tabi's? Maybe changing Randuin's Omen stats a little and putting the Ninja Tabi Passive on Randuin's would be a good idea if Randuin's is already meant to be good against autoattackers. Meanwhile Ninja Tabi's could take a different passive. Maybe something like an autoattack blocker that needs to charge up by moving. Basically a Pantheon Passive on the Statikk Shiv/RFC charging system
Cool idea, but seems too problematic on some cases.
: doesn't that kinda hurt people that don't want to invest two items into damage mitigation early though? The people that build resistance later are going to be punished far harder for it then they used to. This seems like a good change for tanks but i feel fighters also use these items and might get caught up in a bad way with them. Like for example any fighter that wants a beefy MR item. There wasn't much option before with only BV and SV, but now with the change from BV to Abissal what are people like Vi or Jarvan going to build? AD heavy fighters/tanks that don't need the heal increase from SV are kinda handicapped as both MR tank items have useless passive for what you want
The optimal choice is to get Malmortius on said bruisers/ad divers/fighters, along with either Visage (scales with malmortius trigger) or the new Adaptive Helm. Malmortius's passive is already supposed to provide ways to survive magical burst damage on these champs, somewhat covering the gap left from Banshee's. (right now they can build both options, which makes them unkillable by burst mages most of the time.) And Helm is supposed to help you resist sustained damage, something that doesn't quite exist right now Also, having both resistances and a revive passive is too optimal a choice so they tried to remove it. You still have other ways of "taking more damage you were supposed to" with steraks for example, and even the new Gargoyle which is THE optimal choice for heavy divers that will get both resistances AND a momentaneous health bump (which is actually also a heal, if you keep the current health % you had with the active)
: > Repertoir, about the guardian angel changes, are we going to see a AP version of that? We actually tested an AP version of the item as well (literally had an item named AD GA in the shop for testing at the same time as AP GA) because my gut told me that was fair as well. However, after a few weeks of testing, people almost always preferred to just have Zhonya's, and fighting against champions that had both AP GA and Zhonya's wasn't particularly fun (and it was very possible), and so I came to the conclusion it's not something that AP champions need, despite how appealing it sounds. > Stoneplate looks cheap enough for support tanks to get. I'm sure someone like Leona would love it. It would be cool if some support tanks could pick it up in games where they had the money to afford it. > The Helm looks good, but I think it might be a little too strong against spell spammers. This is pretty much what the item is supposed to be good for. Might to _too_ strong against them, as you've suggested, but it's also possible it's instead too strong against non spammers. > I don't think you buffed cinderhulk enough. Needs something else. Very possible. Will definitely be wanting to see how Cinderhulk users are performing upon release (especially relative to their pre-patch performance and their lane tank counterparts), if nothing else.
OWait, do clones and stuff like Illaoi's E-xtracted spirits count as "enemies" for the purpose of Gargoyle's passive?
: >+60 Ability Power +60 Magic Resist +10% Cooldown Reduction Unique Passive: Grants a spell shield that blocks the next enemy ability. This shield refreshes after no damage is taken from enemy champions for 44-**8** seconds based on level. Eight seems like a really, really low cooldown for a spellshield. I know it's only after not taking damage but still, this can be up twice or three times in a single fight Also, do not like the Randuins changes at all :(
in a single... fight...? But yes, it is extremelly hard to work around if they disengage briefly over fights (which is actually a best case scenario for the player buying it)
: Brand kills most champs without ultimate.
: I actually had some changes to it that positioned it as a competitor to other HP/Armor items, but we chose to keep our focus mostly on setting up a good framework. That item has a long way to go before becoming useful, and I'm also not sure players actually _want_ that particular effect to be useful, so it's likely back to the drawing board on it (hopefully sooner rather than later).
About Thornmail, have you ever tested giving a physical-only shield (that **maybe** deals itself as damage), and/or applying grievous wounds (for the purpose of **actually** countering lifesteal)? If so, how did it go? If not, why? What are the problems with these particular approachs?
: 1. If you intend to go forward with this direction the spell shield needs to go entirely. Spell shields are awful to play against, frustrating and unfun, particularly when frequently available (see Edge of Night, Old Banshee's). They also completely screw over combo mages and mages with long cooldowns. I certainly do not want to play in a game where every mage is running around with a spellshield every game, this is not good for the game and im sure the majority of players would agree. 2. Why exactly is Abyssal getting changed in the first place? Why are mages not allowed to have a MR item? because this change pretty much removes the only one they have. Meanwhile every other class of champions, tanks, ADs, supports get 3+?
You do realize the new banshee IS the better ap/mr item? But I'm with you on spellshields being unfun to play against for some. The item was a somewhat necessary response to burst mages being too bursty, but now I hope they find a reasonable and balanced spot with the effect being way more present because otherwise they will have to straight up change it for something else better. I also have a concern about the abyssal. An offensive, team-wide passive is problematic enough on an offensive item, imagine it on a defensive item. Also, HAVE YOU TESTED IT ON AMUMU?
: Take Sunfire Cape for example, my gut tells me 75 health is better than 5.5 armor (10 added, 5.5 after being reduced by lw) even in the endgame. This is true through gold value at least (75 health is 200 gold, 5.5 armor is about 110 gold) But I guess I haven't done the math on it. The Randuins nerf still stands, though.
Yes, Randuin's will rest in our hearts
: GA and Banshee's should be made to not be particularly viable lane rush items if they're going to be Healthy, or at least have obvious tradeoffs to them. Most feedback today seems to suggest the tradeoffs aren't there yet. Out of curiosity, in what ways do you think GA is meaningfully different from Zhonya's in this regard? Thanks for the feedback.
I actually believe Zhonya's having a better stat efficiency along with a much lower cooldown and being active (has its tradeoffs, of course) is a lot better. But thinking in another way, GA does actually soak damage in a sense you take enough damage to die but then you don't (and still get 50% hp after) while Zhonya's prevent you from taking any damage. But again, APs have available hp across their builds while ADs actually benefit more from active fighting (for lifestealing). So it must be the reason they fit that way.
: > [{quoted}](name=CrazedMLC,realm=PBE,application-id=2EAF660193FA3B668D7234B3AEBB530C5AB7F651,discussion-id=8g2H4vjy,comment-id=001b,timestamp=2017-04-06T23:57:14.406+0000) > > The idea of giving a lot of defensive items lower health but more resist is kind of weird. It'll help champs that naturally get free health like Sion and Cho'Gath a lot, but... how is this supposed to help the lategame of other champions? More bonus armor isn't very useful in a world of 45% bonus armor penetration for 1300 gold. In lane it'll just mean most tanks will buy Corrupting Potion to make up for the health difference and have the extra resists synergize with the cheap health it provides, or wait to finish their items to get a little extra health on the side. It might make Warmogs or items like Righteous Glory more common in full builds. > > Randuins may be cheap and effective but it isn't slot efficient anymore. The crit reduction was key to making it relevant in the lategame. Most builds will probably skip it now aside from niche situations where you really need to lower attack speed. The idea I feel is to make tank items more geared towards what you are mitigating . Health is a natural counter to damage so items with health and a defensive stat technically make you tankier for all stat types as a whole. By making them give less health and more of a certain resistance, the tank items become less general purpose.
Also, reducing Health and bumping resists is a buff against penetration and %hp (and they are probably getting nerfed in other ways too)
: Warmog's has some buffs which might help, but it will be probably minimal as far as compensation goes. We've talked about bumping up some Health ratios on tanks specifically to compensate for some of these Health nerfs, but we also want to make sure we're not solving for a problem that doesn't exist (or at least misjudging its severity).
I personally believe Zac should have a hp ratio somewhere to differentiate fighter from damage builds, but now that he's getting reworked I should just forget it
: Me too. We'll see :)
Is... is that Bulwark upside down? Please keep it. No seriously, at least keep the icon as the buff tooltip
: Mostly we want to make Sunfire not great at both pvp combat and pve combat (wave pushing, in this case). This change is aimed mostly at making it worse at pvp combat, while being mostly the same, or even better in some cases, for wave pushing.
About crit damage, do you have plans to change/reduce it? If so, any timelime?
: The Gargoyle item is pretty useless at the moment. For some reason, you can't use its active, so its just a bundle of stats right now
Report it as a bug, they should fix it soon
: I really hope you don't leave Randuin's like that. I hope it can stay in the same 2900g tier that sunfire and deadman's are in and that you guys could just find another way to keep it there if the crit passive has to go. Maybe giving it a physical damage shield?
I've been wanting this forever. I wanna see that awesome orange bar on more champs. Also, I never thought Malphite's passive should include magic and true dmg
: Will Gargoyle Stoneplate redurce true damage ?
I guess not, there aren't many things in the game that interact with true damage (be it reducing or amplifying it), being the purpose and thematic of this damage type "deal/take exactly the amount written in that tooltip"
: "Adaptive Helm Fills a niche of being top tier protection against sustained magic damage dealers (somewhat akin to how Warden's Mail and its upgrades do this, but for magic damage)." Ugh. All the sustained magic damage dealers out there (except maybe Ryze) are not doing so hot. This'll make my favorite champion Mordekaiser (ignore my username lol) even worse. I'd like to ask what was the real reasoning behind making an item such as this?
The reason probably is that you can currently negate a burst mage's entire spell rotation with banshee (abyssal? and the new gargoyle probably) but can't do shit against a fed Cassiopeia with Void that also says "f#&$ your flash". Even considering it's not an everyday thing, it's pretty shitty.
: If Abyssal is mandatory on most mages because of their low magic resist, then shouldn't giving them mr per level be helpful for them? It certainly benefits strategies that don't take mr glyphs and fully invest into magic penetration. (they'll still deal true damage to someone with 12 flat mr glyphs even after the addition of 9 more base mr, and they get more defensive stats) You might have a good point but this particular argument doesn't make a ton of sense. I think Riot is trying to cement the rock paper scissors mentality of mages beat ADCs, ADCs beat tanks, tanks beat mages. Mages beat ADCs: The removal of Banshees as an option for most ADCs, the removal of Magic Resist from GA. ADCs beat tanks: The removal of crit reduction from Randuins, the refocus of most tank items to having more armor and less health. (when most adcs buy 45% bonus armor reduction) Tanks beat mages: The addition of all these magic resist tank items.
Isn't the refocus from hp to resist slightly beneficial for tanks? I mean, let's say tanks have access to roughly 10% more armor. After getting 45% stripped off, they would still end up with more resistances than they do now. And with overall health being lessened, items like botrk and Whisper would be indirectly affected.
: AP mid's/top's being able to build Banshee's Veil without trading much damage for it will allow them to build it much sooner without being punished for it in team fight damage thus making lanning against AP assassins insanely easy. Ad mid/top/marksmen being able to build GA without losing much damage from a regular build will allow them to build it into assassins early thus killing assassins early/mid game advantages which is why people play them. Basically you are doing a massive nerf to assassins which will push them out of play. I understand and appreciate you not wanting tanks to build GA's but find another way don't ruin assassin playstyle it will be bad for the overall health of the game as you will spend the next few weeks trying to balance all of them to the new item meta.
I believe Riot will tune the item so that it won't be an optimal early/mid choice, so assassins early strenght won't have as much of an impact, and they can also build the item later in the game if needed.
: My opinion on all the item changes: - Abyssal seems like a decent alternative for Spirit Visage, but it just doesn't offer enough HP. Make it more expensive if you want to but 350 HP should be the minimum. - Banshees just has a too low CD late game. 8 sec is crazy. Go up to 50-15 sec CD. Also more CDR added? What is this? Will every item in the future have 10% CDR? I can see the 10% making sense for casters but why do you always push everyone to 40% CDR in this game now? Not even a choice to get CDR becaus it is everywhere. - Cinderhulk/Sunfire. With the +0.5 MR per lvl these items will already get nerfed. Nerfing Sunfire then also by ~30% dmg when you finish it (~lvl 9) is huge. Change it from 7+2*lvl to 9+2*lvl at least. Still a nerf early and mid game with a tiny buff late game. - Deadmans: Why do you need to lose stacks when AAing but you don't get any effect? Is that rly needed? Is it that strong after the changes? You still lose stacks when you get CCed anyways (should have been an item to help Garen and Darius but in the end it helps bruisers and tanks with engage and mobility more because they can get to the enemy and slow them without losing stacks to CCs, so it actually doesn't do its job well. Fiora, Camille and others get more out of it than a Garen or Darius). - Droans: Looks way better now. - GA: Expensive for these stats but it will be a huge counter to every AD assassin. Armor + revive? It won't help assassins vs ADCs as much (ADCs have no CD on their AA and don't take the huge engage risk of assassins). Based on its cost efficiency it will probably be either OP against AD casters/assassins or too weak and not bought except for extreme situations (the second scenario should probably be the goal). - Randuins seems to be nerfed and it was already not one of the good armor items. Still offers great defensive stats, but the active is not rly good. Add a 15% AS slow to the active, now that it is only 2 sec. - Warmogs: Better, way better, but still useless in most cases. There is nearly nobody that can go it because HP alone is not a good defensive stat and you need to stack up Armor or the enemy will shred you. Getting one none Armor or MR item is normally not an option, especially now when BotRK is so OP (best early, mid and late game item, counters max HP but is also good against targets that don't build HP and has a slow steal and a ton of sustain built into it). So Warmogs, even when better, will probably stay useless. - Adaptive Helm: Strange and interesting, but I think ti will create problems. Swain, Singed, Kata, Karthus and many others will lose too much dmg through it, while it is a worse Abyssal normally. So it has a clear niche and is not an OPTION but either you won't get it or you have to get it based on the enemy and its strength. - Gargoyle Stoneplate: Looks good. Not sure about the strength but seems to be a very good idea to allow players to focus onto teamfighting tank stats without being an unkillable machine that kills the backline. Why not use Aegis of the Legion for its build path? Armor/MR. Would make its path smoother and gives Aegis a second upgrade option.
> Why not use Aegis of the Legion for its build path? Armor/MR. Would make its path smoother and gives Aegis a second upgrade option. I guess it is exactly the intention. The item is too efficient with its passive/active, so the build should be bad to compensate.
: Adaptative helm sems like a Killing blow to teemo
I hope they rework him soon. His kit is outdated and boring (and weak right now).
: Hi RiotRepertoir, Can you comment on how you think these changes will affect AP champions? It seems like in almost all instances AP champs are going to take a big hit here: - Abyssal being swapped with Banshee's is kind of an overall nerf, I think, since it will mean that certain kinds of champions will not be able to take all-ins vs. Banshee rushers... especially champions who don't have a lot of poke and need to take an all-in off a single spell. Fizz, Lissandra, Morgana, Diana come to mind. (I know Morg isn't played much mid anymore, but...). It's also yet another damage nerf, after AP has been stripped off of a lot of items in the past year or so. - Guardian Angel gives AD, so it's no longer buildable either. It no longer gives MR which is nice, but it feels like ADs already have a big advantage in "utility itemization" when they have QSS, Maw, Edge of Night, and now GA in their pocket. APs are left with only Zhonya's which, while powerful, is still only situationally useful on a lot of champions, and Banshee's Veil which counters other AP champions harder than it does most ADs, as I mentioned above. - MR/lvl being ubiquitous is a clear nerf. AP was reduced across the board to compensate for removing Aegis, but this is just a swing back in the other direction, and it doesn't look like compensation is forthcoming. - Adaptive Helm is obvious targeted towards certain kinds of AP champions that are very spammy, and there's only a few of those. But I feel APs have been hefted up by MR itemization having been "meh" for a while, and changing that will disrupt a delicate balance. I'm not sure any one of those changes is massive enough to be a problem on their own, but bundled together I have a feeling that non-utility AP champions will be in a very poor spot after this patch. Would love to hear your thoughts.
* From the champions you cited, Fizz is the one taking the biggest hit. Diana's Q is still a skillshot; Morgana has her W wich pops the shield with only one tick, and can manage to hit the Q after this and not waste a spell rotation; and Lissandra's Q is especially spammable currently with lower mana costs and passive. BUT, I hope they change this iteration too, because it was always problematic before, worse now that it'll be used on carries. * First, you're forgetting the item you mentioned above which blocks a spell every 22-8 seconds and is now made for AP carries. Second, suppose it was changed for AD+MR instead of AR. Wouldn't it be much worse for mages who already have a lot of cheap counters right now? In this current state its stats will only work against other physical dmg dealers, and (I hope) riot has ways of making it non-rushable so you don't see an adc reviving with 50% health at only 20min in the game. * Defense itemization in general is being shifted from "stack tons of health and cover up your weaknessess" to "choose what type of damage is the problem right now and build accordingly". Also, with overall health going down and resistances coming up it's a double buff to Void Staff, which could actually become too strong. * I agree, but if magic damage is getting weak overall that is a much easier problem to solve than letting them be strong with no ways to defend yourself from it.
: The Banshees changes are going to be terrible for champions whose only way to pop it is also the spell their combo is gated around. Hell, this is already the case, but as a tank item it feels far less bad to play against than this new iteration that carries will be picking up will do. I may be biased as a Diana main, but when Q is your only way to pop Banshees, and the spell your entire combo relies on, it doesn't result in a good experience. It was the same problem when Edge of Night was heavily overtuned and in the meta. I think if you're going ahead with the Banshees changes, it should at least be changed to an active rather than a passive. It discriminates against certain champions far more than others, and those champions aren't necessarily in a good place already. Most meta mid laners have a way to reliably keep it popped without affecting their overall damage output. It's those out of meta that should be afraid of this change.
I agree with the concern, but making it an active will just make it worse in ALL cases, because you won't be able to pop the shield when you want, you'll also have to trick the enemy into using it first.
: While the slow strength buff to Randuin's is good, I don't see a lot of reason to pick it up if it only offers the slow and the crit damage reduction is removed. Also while I love love LOVE Abyssal Scepter being a tank item, it sounds like it will just be there to increase the ambient magic damage in a fight and coordinate with teammates. Is there any chance the damage amp effect will do anything similar to Black Cleaver? I agree with the other changes, and love the changes to GA and the new items. It'll be incredibly satisfying to beaf up my tank in a teamfight. Will Adaptive Helm work on effects like Kog'Maw's W, or Brand's passive? EDIT: Would Adaptive Helm work on the first instance of magic damage once its passive is on cooldown? Like if Cassiopeia hits a tank with Q-E-E-E would it reduce the damage of the Q poison or E damage? Do you worry new Abyssal will be used by mages/assassins as a bruiser item to sure up their weakness of being squishy without losing too much damage?
I don't know about Kog, but Brand yes. Black Cleaver does have an offensive componente to itself, when new Banshee's doesn't. But I'm with you that this version will just raise up the ambient magic damage and won't contribute much to the game or build overall.
: Hey Repertoir, Really excited to dive in and test these out. Quick question about Adaptive Helm: Does the passive work on repetion of the same ability or just one instance of the ability being cast? The tooltip says it reduces all subsequent magic damage "from that same spell or effect" for 5 seconds, but this can be interpreted one of a few ways. For example, would damage from all Ryze or Cass Es be mitigated for 5 seconds or just the first E cast? Thanks!
I believe it works, just as it says, with all subsequent (MAGIC) damage, be it from the same instance of the spell or other ones. Think of, yes, Ryze, Cassio, Ez (spammers) or Singed, Morgana, Teemo (dot). And I have a question. Does it only work with Champion skills or does it also work with items like, say, Cinder or Thornmail? **EDIT**: sorry, it only works with magic damage, so ez Q wouldn't damage less, but his W and E would.
: There will not be RP compensation this time around. We know this is a different approach, but we wanted to offer a way for existing owners to be recognized in-game and honor the moment in our history that her initial launch represents. Thus, the added crown, particle and custom loading screen border that is only available for those who originally owned the skin.
What about a small indicator on her mastery badge? (I guess people who have obtained her back in season 2 would have at least level 5) It's more noticeable than her crown, and some people don't even mind looking at loading screen these days.
: I'm not really liking the changes to spirit's visage and banshee's veil. It doesn't feel like tanks have any good MR options. AD bruisers have maw, AP bruisers have abyssal, and tanks used to have spirit's visage and banshee's veil, but now those two are being pushed away from having large amounts of health and MR. There are three different health/armor items for tanks to choose from, why are the health/MR options so lacking?
> [{quoted}](name=Primeape,realm=PBE,application-id=2EAF660193FA3B668D7234B3AEBB530C5AB7F651,discussion-id=79cto3EB,comment-id=0014,timestamp=2016-04-07T06:40:17.519+0000) > > There are three different health/armor items for tanks to choose from, why are the health/MR options so lacking? I actually agree with this part. Sometimes it feels like we should be served with more cool and "specific" interactions with magic damage types like AoE, DoT. Items that work more specifically with them. For example, the spellshield on Banshee is great against almost everything BUT DoT. Maybe give us something that reduces AoE damage specifically, gives a situational speed boost/slow resist when trapped over stationary affected areas (Morgana's W, Viktor's W, maybe Ziggs's E). Or maybe some Mercury-line item with mr + tenacity against teams with overbearing amounts of CC. MR items just feel boring compared to AS Slow, crit-specific damage reduction, payback damage...
Rioter Comments
: Mordekaiser Change Summary & Feedback Thread
Last red post 9 days ago... CertainlyT please talk to us{{item:3070}} {{item:3070}}
: Cooldown for team ults is something we're looking into for future release.
And how far in the future would it actually be? We would really enjoy this feature right now, as we keep asking for it for as long as I can remember. It would be pretty awesome (and extremelly useful) to have allied ult's CD on our instant vision.


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