: The item may seem better on paper, but for dps roles who don't have time to stack 6 cleavings on a target, LW provides instant ArPen. I would go LW>BC on Talon, for instance. BC is more of an over-time/sustained damage dealer's item, like Garen, and...Garen lol.
Black Cleaver gives CDR so it's better then LW on talon, but you could probably get both. The stacks isn't the problem with the APEN you normally have way more time to get 6 stacks on almost every champion since the duration is 6 seconds.
: Thanks for the feedback! Just for clarity on a couple of the things you hit on: Having this as a good 2nd-4th item was a goal - it's a weird rush item (as you note) because you don't care about the % pen at that stage of the game. The 20% cooldown reduction is in place as a very effective way to get players to value it in that spot, even though it's not the core purpose of the item. Concerns that 20% is just too much are valid and constitute one of the big risks for the item, but at this point it looks promising - the champs who want it for the CDR (instead of, say, Frozen Heart) are also champions who get good use out of the other stuff on the item. To elaborate a bit, the stats on any item have to at least be good enough to make you feel like you have permission to buy it; we're not going to e.g. load so much armor shred on this that you'll buy it despite really poor stats, because that would do all sorts of awful things (nobody ever wants to buy armor again; tanks don't exist). We hit on the 20% CDR because the champions who should probably want this item for the shred - and the phage, for that matter - are champions who previously had a significant gap in itemization in filling CDR. It's possible the CDR amount will change, particularly if we hit on a really good way to make it a strong 2nd-4th buy on those champions without having to do something like 20% CDR (or if the CDR proves particularly problematic), but it should do its job for now. Re: Phage: We tried a few different tunings of the Phage passive, but really what happens as soon as the tunings are any different from the base item is that Black Cleaver becomes "Super Phage" instead of "Armor Shred". The numbers here are something we'll be watching closely and are something that could reasonably change after some time on Live, but we're not going to buff them unless we have to and right now I don't think we're going to have to. Re: Stack counts: Sounds reasonable. I'm not totally set in my own mind that 6 is the right count here, but I'm also not getting enough data internally + in PBE testing to really prove it out either way (with that in mind, reactions like this are pretty valuable, so thanks for that!). Definitely something I'll be trying to keep an eye on as it goes live.
What separates this item from last whisper? Why would you want to build last whisper over this item now it is only 700 gold more and you get more slot efficient stats (40) AD + (400) Health + (20%) CDR + Phage Proc + Black Cleaver Passive. The cost for the recipe is 825 gold, so you get 10% extra CDR for this + 20 AD (720 gold) + Black Cleaver Passive which makes this item very slot efficient. Meaning most champions will probably not replace it late game for a better item since there are not any items that give equal stats on one item. Though you do get 5% less apen and it ramps up I would say this item is much better then last whisper. I will explain why I do not think FH is a valid item normally in rare cases would you ever buy FH first like nasus does. FH also does not give stats that you want to solo carry with so Randuins is a much better item since you get health, armor, slow active, and the passive AS slow. For most junglers or tops that are in my champ pool standard runes are pretty greedy consisting of 7.5% CDR + 9 AR + 19 APEN or 6.8 AD + 7.5% CDR + 9 AR. The builds that were used to test the item were meant to solo carry. Meaning tank items were not very important as these builds want the most damage as possible without risk of dying very easily, but GA + Randuins is bought much later on. What if you have some sort of active tied to black cleaver that applies stacks in some AOE action such as Tiamat but doesn't do damage? I also think ranged champions should have reduced time to apply the stacks because 6 seconds is far too long. For ranged champions to reapply stacks or for the stacks to stay on a target imagine a team-fight where your AR is reduced by 30% for 6 seconds for everyone. Also why are certain queues like PBE ranked and regular SR normals down? (I know they rotate on a cycle but it has been a while I think?)
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