: The problem with Zilean is that he needs a complete rework in general. Look at the champion in itself, what makes Zilean? A bomb, a movement speed spell and an ultimate that revives people, and he's mostly only picked for his ultimate. The problem with the role of Zilean is that he doesn't really classify as any normal kind of role that's found in the game. He's not a nuke mage, because he only has one spell that he may cast twice lategame in rapid succession, hardly able to nuke unless you're fed or the enemy team is squishy, and that's all the offensive capabilities he has. None of his other abilties, let alone his ultimate deal damage. So what, is he a support? Well, not exactly either. Common supports focus on supporting team members, but only 2 of his abilities are supportive in nature. His movement spell is, for what it's worth, a really good spell, but combined with the fact that he has nothing else to give to his team, that's lack luster. The only reason he's picked, yet again, is for his ultimate, which is just so good that you excuse that the rest of his kit sucks. There's also no counter-play to Zilean. I know that Rioters always preach that champions should be fun to play, as well as fun to play against. Zilean is certainly not that kind of champion. His Q is a simple "Get in range and get a bomb" spell, most of the time he wins any trade because his poke is just much simpler. I find this could maybe be fixed by making it a skillshot, but that's just one of the problems. His E is probably the biggest offender. It's a spell that reduces cooldown when you press it. No, really. Something like that would not exist in any kind of champion nowadays, it's the embodiment of "not fun" for both players. I can't do anything to stop Zilean from casting two bombs on me, and Zilean probably doesn't enjoy having to click that spell everytime in his combo, when it could easily just use a stack option like Corki's ultimate that he gains 2 bombs after a certain time that he can cast in quick succession. His passive, or rather the lack of a proper passive, is the least of his worries. I can almost 100% guarantee you he's up for a rework, honestly I find he's the biggest candidate after Sion, but it's more likely that the next champions we'll get are Warwick and Taric.
Zilean probably needs a reworked Q eventually, that much I'll agree with. Even then, the most toxic part of his kit is his current passive which gives global exp. I simply only opted to complain that the reworked passive on the PBE was extremely uncreative and also problematic. Now I disagree with you that a spell dedicated to cooldown refreshing isn't fun. Granted, Zilean isn't exactly Dota Tinker, but the point is that a spell dedicated to cooldown refreshing opens up interesting and unconventional ability gating/usage patterns. What probably SHOULD happen though is Zilean needs more opportunity cost on his W (in terms of either cooldown or cost), while making the spell itself more powerful when used. Furthermore, one thing that hasn't been tried in ANY league champion is a support ability that specifically affects OTHER champion cooldowns, or perhaps as I stated earlier item actives. The point is, an ability dedicated to cooldown refreshing in fact can be an extremely interesting design.
Rioter Comments
: A Talon fanatic's suggestion and thoughts on Cutthroat (E)
I believe that yes, implementing stealth on Talon's E would not only make thematic sense, it would definitely be a more versatile approach to making Talon a healthier champion. Upvoted.
: Skarner PBE Feedback/Bugs Thread
I like the mechanics suggested. However I believe that the passive you're suggesting on Skarner would be balanced with a cooldown of 4 of 5 seconds. Also, the ability ratio nerfs are completely unnecessary given Skarner doesn't really get to build much damage anyway (relevant question: why can Maokai have extremely high AP ratios?). I can understand why you would want to do base number nerfs to compensate for a damaging passive, though I'd actually prefer less damage on the passive and just closer the original damage values on Skarner's abilities. One last thing I would suggest on Skarner is given he won't be getting CDR on his other abilities in this build, that you increase Skarner's base attack time to .67 or something.
: [Planned 4.5 or 4.6] Summoner Spell and Enchantment Changes
Any word on {{summoner:2}} {{summoner:1}} {{summoner:13}} ? To be honest, I think Clarity in particular would be more awesome if it wasn't specifically restricted in usefulness for mana champions. If it had an additional effect such as reducing current ability cooldowns by a percentage, that would be pretty neat.
Rioter Comments
: As of now (played him 3 times) he seems a bit weak. What he lost from his sustain he did not gain in slow. Yes the ranged slow was probably needed, however none of the builds i tried felt as strong as current skarner does. His slow travles perhaps a bit too slow, and is easy to dodge because of the clear signes (animation and (edit: audio)) as he casts. As for jungeling (2 of 3 games) it is hard and not obvious what skills to max, as you get clear speed from q, you get gank power from e and w, but that leaves you with just about no damage... With no points in w you have no dueling power, with no points in q you simply cant clear camps, and you have no damage. But with only one point in e, it feels hopless to gank.
Get 2 points in W and keep it there. Max Q first if you intend to farm/invade. Max E first if you intend to gank constantly. You only need 2 points in W for a safe jungle clear. Maxing Q or E is up to what the player wants.
: The idea on the Q is that if you hold it for a very long time, you'll be punished (very strong self-slow). If you just charge it up to full range and release, the slow is much milder.
I honestly don't have a problem with that concept, because I can understand this provides an element of counterplay. But 208 movement speed with tier 2 boots? Realistically, it really feels constraining for the Xerath player. I would want to try a minimum value of something like 230ish. It is worth keeping in mind that unlike Varus's Piercing Arrow for instance, Xerath makes an actual animation commitment that interrupts his movement when activating his Q. And Varus's Q I believe actually has more range unless I'm mistaken? Now Varus doesn't have a pre-6 hard CC granted nor does he have a potential 2.1 AP scaling non-ult burst combo. But I don't see anyone complaining that Varus's Q is poorly designed. I do believe that the restricting numbers on Xerath's Q can be toned down, and it would improve player experiences.
: Xerath rework now back on PBE
Okay, since there is a demand to keep things in one topic, and since I JUST noticed this, I'll move what I originally posted to here. My current impressions of Xerath is that the movement speed reduction on his Q feels a bit severe. You are slowed down to about 208 movement speed (while wearing tier 2 boots), which I feel is a little bit excessive and makes the positioning requirement for using this ability feel really strict. For comparison, Varus without boots has about 268 movement speed while charging his Q. A minimum movement speed around that ballpark would feel more comfortable, especially when we consider the animation commitment Xerath makes on his Q. That's my main complaint. I haven't gotten to play this particular iteration of Xerath against people yet though, so I don't yet have opinions on how he performs against champions. The visual effects however are very good in my opinion, and I would be happy to see them being used on live.
: Xerath Rework V9
My current impressions of Xerath is that the movement speed reduction on his Q feels a bit severe. You are slowed down to about 208 movement speed (while wearing tier 2 boots), which I feel is a little bit excessive and makes the positioning requirement for using this ability feel really strict. For comparison, Varus without boots has about 268 movement speed while charging his Q. A minimum movement speed around that ballpark would feel more comfortable. That's my main complaint. I haven't gotten to play Xerath against people yet though, so I don't yet have opinions on how her performs against champions. The visual effects however are very good in my opinion, and I would be happy to see them being used on live.
Rioter Comments
: You mean... The total damage made by Leona's passive until "now" in the game?
I thought that is what I meant. The idea is Leona players would want clarification that helps explain exactly how much damage they have contributed throughout the game. Leona's passive procs need to be credited to the champion that procs them for actual balance reasons, but it still would be nice for Leona players to know exactly how much damage their passive has done so that they can add it later to their credited damage output to get a better idea of their overall influence. End-game statistics suggest Leona does relatively low damage, which is misleading given a large portion of her damage comes from her passive. There is obviously no easy way to show from endgame statistics the contribution of Leona's passive under normal circumstances, so the next best solution is showing in-game up to now how much damage it has dealt.
: Tryndamere still has to hit things in melee to sustain, his Q by it self heals for almost nothing and has a considerably long CD. Botlane is a joke right now,a vamp scepter isn't going to stop a good mage supports burst and zone you any way. What the hell are you playing that makes harass so useless to a vamp scepter or revolver. Are you that ADC that rushes two dorans and attack speed boots over real damage? You're still falling for a season 1 fallacy that all you do botlane is farm, Kill lanes are much more effective and efficient, you have to play passive against a kill lane or get a support with early peel like lulu or jana if you want a sustain lane. Botlane in general has always been snowbally, if you feed the fuck out of an ADC they will be a problem, either by farm or kills. Again you are pushing a constant farm system, like oh wait, DOTA, :GETOUT: and Merry Christmas.
12 seconds isn't a long cooldown at all for a heal. Rank 1 heal in a worst cast scenario is similar to about 12.5 hp/5, which is honestly a lot earlygame. Pre-nerf Zac had about that much base HP/regen at level 1 and had to be nerfed because it was in fact too good for laning. Way to completely take what I said out of context, because I very specifically said the only lane interaction bot lane is in fact burst kill lane interaction/ganks. The very existence of low tier lifesteal polarizes these trends because of how it implicitly invalidates a large amount of harass tactics. And quite the contrary, I'm not pushing for the game to be old Dota 1 meta (current Dota is considerably less farm heavy competitively and decided by ganks). The goal is to promote varied and interactive laning, which lifesteal does a very poor job of doing by promoting very snowball oriented strategies. Bot lane would be considerably less snowbally if low tier lifesteal was removed, forcing sustain to be based around regen, because basic harass tactics would be viable for much longer even if one side managed to pull ahead early.
: And yet, you still don't get it. Pushing a regen or pot based system is the opposite of what league has been pushing for, No more starting more then 5 potions, no more potion stacking on morde or garen. Again, you bring up only two champions, that have ever really had this kind of issue into the discussion. If you want a more extreme example, let's look at Akali, she is by design against your entire make-up concept for changing the role of Spell-vamp and lifesteal. You are not showing any real good reason to so dramatically shift the make-up of the game mechanics to a regen system other then some very poor associations to very specific sustain based laners. We've hashed this arguement, I've exposed your bias, I've shown you for what you are and what you are trying to do. Your regen system is no better then going back to base when ever you are below 50% hp, that is not healthy or fun for the game either. For a final time :GETOUT:
Potion caps are IMPORTANT because again, sustain has to be conditional. You are missing the entire reason why regen is the most balancable form of sustain. Yes potion stacking was gay and needed to be nerfed. Yet this can be balanced by potion caps. HP regen items are less effective than lifesteal in duels overall, and also don't promote snowballing push strategies the same way. Low tier lifesteal items in general needs to be taken out of the game because they are not really balanceable. Akali is actually considerably less extreme than either Morde or Vlad in terms of sustain laning. She has to be melee range to take advantage of most of her sustain, which is why she and Aatrox are not listed (Tryndamere in contrast has objectively free sustain at all points of the game and Vamp Scepter only aggravates his issues even further). She has other counterplay issues but sustain isn't the biggest of them. If you're trying to say that my examples aren't appropriate by bringing one I supposedly forgot, you have bad reasons for picking it. And the fact of the matter is bot lane laning is a very common example of how lifesteal promotes stale laning tactics. Harass tactics become a lot less effective the instant ADs can afford a Vamp scepter, and then the only interaction is basically kill lanes or ganks unless someone is just grossly ahead at this point.
: Twisted Fate's current state.
Honestly the buff duration nerf to TF's W was really unnecessary. TF is awful at zoning most champions solo due to his short auto range. They could revert most of that and he'd probably be fine. Also Blue Card honestly should restore slightly more mana. TF's honestly has HUGE mana problems when you factor the risk he has to take to use Pick a Card.
Rioter Comments
: It is the objective choice of the vladamir or Morde player to choose revolver over damage. Just like Lifesteal. You are complaining, in effect, about champions who synergize with these key abilities more then the abilities themselves. You can not ever effectively harass Vlad or morde regardless of their build path, they are by design, sustain based lane champions, a little poke here and there is not going to effect them one way or another. By your logic, Mundo and Garen symbolize what you want champions to be like in league. Your focal point is misguided, passive regen is a free cop-out for having to do something to regain health while in lane. It's bad for gameplay and encourages passivity or harsher lane bullying on both sides. You have to do things when you have spell vamp and life steal. You have to hit things, and use abilities, which implies risk. I call you a Dota player because you are trying to bring another games mechanic structure and style, a game that is bad, always will be bad, should never EVER be ported to league. Life Steal and Spell Vamp are fine, you are only complaining about it because of the champions you want to see inadvertently nerfed by it. You can't side step that because of your examples alone showing your personal opinion. I will not stand for by-proxy nerfs of any champion by killing their itemization. It's people like you that Killed Ionic Spark. Straw man or not, YOU are the Toxic element here compadre, not spell vamp and lfiesteal. So once again :GETOUT:
Firstoff, I never said Mundo and Garen represent what I want League to become, that's you taking things out of context. Free sustain is fundamentally never a good thing, and both Garen and Mundo require balance tweaking as things are right now. Sustain has to be CONDITIONAL. The focus of League should be purchasing more consumables or HP/5 in order to have sustain, because this play pattern is one that gives both sides options to play around that can be countered. Lifesteal and spellvamp are problematic because they encourage snowballing push strategies, whereas Regen doesn't reward you directly for constant lane shoving meaning YOU STILL USUALLY CAN BE ZONED when your excess sustain is regen (Mundo is an outlier to this, but again as I stated he needs balance tweaks). I only mention Morde and Vlad as obvious examples of why Revolver is a bad item that shouldn't exist. When Revolver actually can be used (such as when Morde or Vlad are good), it's not a healthy item for the game. I'm trying to remain very calm here, but your bias and hostility is evident. You don't need to tell me that Dota is a terrible game. I can tell you that in better detail because I actually take the time to understand its fundamental approach. Yes a large part of Dota's fundamental approach is inapropriate for League. That's obvious. You are ignorant to assume however that everything about the game isn't something League can use, ESPECIALLY factoring that League at its roots is a game that is inspired by Dota.
: Spell vamp already is hugely limited in availability, Life steal only works on basic attacks, there is little to no point in nerfing access to lifesteal or recovery items from damage as it negates the entire purpose of glass cannon or carry champions. Life steal and spell vamp is a dueling tool. It lets you fight in trades and against people in a 1v1 or 1v2 situation that you might normally not win or never even have the chance to fight against. This sounds to me like you are pushing a very specific grudge about a particular champion or set of champions that you can't fight. Even funnier you're a dota player, :getout: Don't bring your shitty game mechanics to league.
Spellvamp being "limited in availability" doesn't make it less toxic when it's core earlygame on Vlad and Mordekaiser. Basic attacks are FREE which is why large amounts of lifesteal earlygame ruins laning, which I will remind you is a part of the game that Riot officially states that they care about. Glass cannon champions can have lifesteal LATEGAME. That's not a problem. It's early to midgame where large amounts of lifesteal is unacceptable because it fundamentally ruins laning. And so what that lifesteal and spellvamp are dueling tools? More importantly in the amounts that they are provided in Vamp Scepter and Revolver, they are also tools that trivialize harass, which is IMPORTANT for laning. I find it funny you call me a Dota player, when I easily play League more than Dota by a factor of probably at least 10 times over. Dota has a whole host of problems unrelated to this topic. It DOES however have a much more interactive and strategically balanced system concerning sustain, because their focus is HP regen, which is fundamentally far less obscene to play around. And sure, I could complain about how specific champions like Tryndamere, Mordekaiser, and Vladimir are objectively toxic. That's not the point of this topic! The point is the fact that lifesteal and spellvamp itemization is toxic isn't helping the situation at all when it encourages unhealthy play patterns.
: Personally, I don't mind the early lifesteal, it's the lategame lifesteal that becomes the problem. Bursty adcs like Draven and Lucian can do massive damage and completely regain all of their health in a matter of seconds. It's like fighting wolverine: he's a glass cannon, but he just heals it all back. They transcend the role of a glass cannon and translate all of that massive damage into extra health, effectively making their health bars far larger than what they should be. Not only that, it somewhat usurps champs with innate lifestal, as they no longer have a really special mechanic, since it falls off when compared to an adc's ls. Imo, lifesteal should have diminishing returns (like armor), and not benefit so much from crits. P.S. I also absolutely love the SS changes for mana and hp sustain.
Lategame is when lifesteal is actually most balanced in a sense, because disabling and bursting a range AD is mathematically pretty simple. Lifesteal gets kinda lame on hyperscaling bruisers like Nasus and Olaf I guess, but it takes a long time for them to hit that point and that's kinda their niche.
: Only a comment on a small part of the post, but bot lane really needs some form of sustain to mitigate its massive snowballing tendencies. Otherwise a single lost trade would have no counterplay other than a gank, and as the lane with the most wards and usually the most cc, a 3 v 2 gank can easily turn the way of the two if the 3 are low.
That sustain should not be Vampiric Scepter. Vampiric Scepter is strong enough to largely deincentivize poke and harass tactics, which are an important part of laning. It is ESPECIALLY important for poke and harass to be a somewhat feasible option when you are LOSING lane, which is especially when Vampiric Scepter is toxic. Sustain should be shifted to either HP per 5 or consumables for the earlygame. You can still try to zone people that are ahead and buying HP regen. Vampiric Scepter in contrast is just too stupid of an item to encourage healthy laning.
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