: Next PBE update 6.22.16_10_31_05_01 - still not working.
Yeah, we just got this figured out a few minutes ago. Hopefully it'll work on the next build!
: What method do you use to sort the threads by if this is the third one you comment on o.o Just curious. (Here's hoping my assassin items thread gets love too)
> [{quoted}](name=Saixos V,realm=PBE,application-id=2EAF660193FA3B668D7234B3AEBB530C5AB7F651,discussion-id=iOVWbu92,comment-id=00040000,timestamp=2016-10-24T21:46:35.408+0000) > > What method do you use to sort the threads by if this is the third one you comment on o.o > > Just curious. (Here's hoping my assassin items thread gets love too) I read em all and don't really sort xD Where my posts go is gonna look pretty haphazard cause it often has to do with how much time I've got at the moment haha
: The Shaco changes are not healthy. They should not go through.
> [{quoted}]The changes don't even make sense. The rank one damage is 5, and the rank 5 damage is less than half of live's value. The AP scaling is reduced too. They added a slow once again to force AD for auto attacks. They changed the bonus AD scaling to total AD, like I've said before, to force AD playstyle. The only difference between Total Attack Damage and Bonus Attack Damage scaling is that TAD includes AD you gain from leveling up. This causes E's damage to go up naturally as Shaco gains levels, freeing him up to put points in Q ^^
: @20thCenturyFaux - A S2 hardcore Leblanc main's Thoughts
Thanks for your thoughts! It's always a delight to read through something like this. You're quite right on the W -- we brought the way it interacts with terrain up to modern LoL standards, which mainly means including a bit more forgiveness on the terrain detection. We tried versions of the RR where you could still cast it when R was on CD... turned out to be a deathtrap, sadly. Very often you'd see your R button lit up out of the corner of your eye and think "oh thank god my R is off cooldown", then try to RW or somesuch only to splap out an RR clone in the middle of the fight. Sadness ensued. I share your concerns about tank LB, that's why so much of her power is loaded into her AP ratios... if tank LB becomes a thing, we'll definitely want to nerf it. For the RR, it's my hope that as players play with it more they'll find more and more ways to use it. We've found that it has a sort of "usefulness floor" -- when LB is flanking a teamfight, if she RR's on the other side of the teamfight and runs in at the same time, it's typically both effective and reliable. This lets LB avoid spamming it every cooldown, so she can wait for epic opportunities to trick people with it because she can be confident she'll get value from it if no good opportunity arises. At least, that's the dream... time will tell if that's how it shakes out on live xD As for clone leash... o.O? That shouldn't be happening! Do you remember what happened that the R clone leashed? Thanks again for the well-thought out, awesome post!
: [LeBlanc] Chain - Distortion Inconsistency
Weird! I'll check this out, thanks for the info
: This sounds amazing and I cant wait to see what Faker can do with it.
> [{quoted}](name=hanabichan,realm=PBE,application-id=2EAF660193FA3B668D7234B3AEBB530C5AB7F651,discussion-id=x4tgmm0s,comment-id=0013,timestamp=2016-10-19T00:47:25.331+0000) > > This sounds amazing and I cant wait to see what Faker can do with it. Legit the fact that Faker plays LB so much was very hard to put out of my thoughts... I have to think of what's best for players and the game at large, but the notion that, should he disapprove, an unkillable demon king might emerge gracefully from the earth and kill me with his mind... difficult to ignore xD
: Not with that kind of attitude you can't!
: Shaco Rework Reference
: Shaco will remain with the same HP for boxes? I mean, why not put something like 3 hits for kill boxes like Zyra plants or Heimer turrets? I can't test yet the changes but for a long time ago, at late, a simply AOE with minimum damage can remove all Shaco boxes in less than 1 second before the boxes can activate and feels frustrating. I'm not saying this for nerf or buff, but for quality of life before a future rework.
Oh, forgot that yeah -- Box health scales with Shaco's champion level.
: Wish that rumor on shaco getting an ap scaling on q was true. Oh well {{champion:35}} But with this amount of small changes, does this mean hes gonna receive a full VGU?
> [{quoted}](name=Cant Remorse,realm=PBE,application-id=2EAF660193FA3B668D7234B3AEBB530C5AB7F651,discussion-id=auEY7jEU,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2016-10-18T21:11:15.203+0000) > > Wish that rumor on shaco getting an ap scaling on q was true. Oh well {{champion:35}} But with this amount of small changes, does this mean hes gonna receive a full VGU? It wasn't a rumor and it is in fact true ^^ The full list of Shaco changes was hard to fit into the summary post at the beginning. List of changes from memory: all spells that had variable timing (Q,W,R) now have consistent timing, lots of bugs fixed across the kit, R AI improvements (should only matter if Shaco isn't issuing orders himself), his passive took the mini-crit stuff from Q and has a per-unit cooldown that can be reduced by cooldown reduction, Q has bonus flat damage that is multiplied by the P mini-crit and has an AP ratio, Q stealth duration scales with rank 1.5-4.5, Q cooldown nerfed a bit but hitting something with the damage portion refunds 2 seconds of it, W can be placed while stealth but briefly reveals Shaco when he does, W has a small AP ratio on total (not triggered) duration, W Health scales with Shaco level, E has % missing health damage and TAD scaling and is no longer good to rank first (that's Q's job now), E monster attack speed slow removed, R drops a triangle of mini-boxes that do less dmg/fear, trigger together, and share health.
: Seems like it would be an amazing scouting tool regardless, just from being able to spawn it anywhere on the map and the fact that it seeks out enemy champions. It's like a blue trinket/frost queen's claim hybrid. What's stopping people from using it like this?
It seeks out enemies champions LB can see; if its put near an enemy who goes into fog before the clone appeared, the clone runs into fog where LB last saw the enemy, but the clone itself gains no knowledge of enemies hidden by fog of war.
: First thing I noticed is you cannot control the R -> R clone. I think it would feel a lot better if you could. I think it is probably stronger that it controls itself but I think it would be more fun if you could control it. Also the .3 second delay feels pretty clunky as someone who is used to what it was before. So far though I think this rework is pretty fun. Edit: I'm loving this new sigil of malice its pretty cool
> [{quoted}](name=gubigubi,realm=PBE,application-id=2EAF660193FA3B668D7234B3AEBB530C5AB7F651,discussion-id=x4tgmm0s,comment-id=0006,timestamp=2016-10-18T21:15:43.645+0000) > > First thing I noticed is you cannot control the R -> R clone. I think it would feel a lot better if you could. I think it is probably stronger that it controls itself but I think it would be more fun if you could control it. > > Also the .3 second delay feels pretty clunky as someone who is used to what it was before. > > So far though I think this rework is pretty fun. > > Edit: I'm loving this new sigil of malice its pretty cool The thing about allowing the RR clone to be controllable is this -- if you _can_ control it, you _have to_ to stay competitive. A lot of the coolest RR plays become very micro-intensive, and the actual experience isn't ideal -- microing a cross-map clone with alt-clicks (R is busy) while driving yourself proved quite clunky/annoying.
: Does the RR clone grant vision?
> [{quoted}](name=hpp3,realm=PBE,application-id=2EAF660193FA3B668D7234B3AEBB530C5AB7F651,discussion-id=x4tgmm0s,comment-id=000500000000,timestamp=2016-10-18T21:13:06.321+0000) > > Does the RR clone grant vision? A very small amount -- it isn't meant to be a scouting tool.
: Did you increased Distortion dash speed as promised on the first topic?
> [{quoted}](name=Plubio,realm=PBE,application-id=2EAF660193FA3B668D7234B3AEBB530C5AB7F651,discussion-id=x4tgmm0s,comment-id=0007,timestamp=2016-10-18T21:18:56.872+0000) > > Did you increased Distortion dash speed as promised on the first topic? It's back to its pre-nerf speed, yeah
: This looks pretty cool. Some questions: 1. Does the RR clone spawn in obviously bad locations or relatively near enemy champions? For example, does it spawn in the enemy fountain/under indestructible turrets? 2. Does the RR clone come from fog of war out of enemy vision, or just instantly appear anywhere on the map including in vision? 3. Is the functionality of R similar to Karma's current R (Mantra)? 4. What is Leblanc's Q if Sigil of Malice was moved to passive? 5. When R copies a spell, does it cast at the same target as the original? i.e. does RW have the clone W to exactly where Leblanc W'd? Does RE have the clone chain where Leblanc chained? Is 2 chainz still possible? 6. What happens if you W, then RW, then W back? Does the clone keep going somewhere? 7. Is the clone created from R still controllable? 8. Does the Sigil of Malice created from R-enhanced spells deal more damage than the regular Sigil of Malice? 9. Does the clone created from R apply or proc Sigil of Malice on targets it hits? Thanks.
> [{quoted}](name=wheresDaMuffin,realm=PBE,application-id=2EAF660193FA3B668D7234B3AEBB530C5AB7F651,discussion-id=x4tgmm0s,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2016-10-18T20:51:23.085+0000) > > This looks pretty cool. Some questions: > 1. Does the RR clone spawn in obviously bad locations or relatively near enemy champions? For example, does it spawn in the enemy fountain/under indestructible turrets? > 2. Does the RR clone come from fog of war out of enemy vision, or just instantly appear anywhere on the map including in vision? > 3. Is the functionality of R similar to Karma's current R (Mantra)? > 4. What is Leblanc's Q if Sigil of Malice was moved to passive? > 5. When R copies a spell, does it cast at the same target as the original? i.e. does RW have the clone W to exactly where Leblanc W'd? Does RE have the clone chain where Leblanc chained? Is 2 chainz still possible? > 6. What happens if you W, then RW, then W back? Does the clone keep going somewhere? > 7. Is the clone created from R still controllable? > 8. Does the Sigil of Malice created from R-enhanced spells deal more damage than the regular Sigil of Malice? > 9. Does the clone created from R apply or proc Sigil of Malice on targets it hits? > Thanks. 1. It spawns wherever you target it, that can certainly include the fountain etc. 2. It fades into being where you click it, if you create it on a ward it probably won't be very deceptive... unless they're not looking ^^ 3. Yep 4. Pretty similar. Still targetted, still does damage; if it hits a ready Sigil of Malice it chains to the next one. RQ also has more of a damage role than before -- if LB is willing to give up the mobility of RW or the CC of RE, RQ rewards her with a bit more damage. 5. LB chooses the targets, as before; the clone casts the same spell at the same time against the same target, so the clone W dashes exactly to the RW dash location. 6. Yep. You can't W back during the RW dash or the 0.3s~ period after, but once you do the clone will continue to wander around, occasionally autoattack etc. 7. The clones during regular R are controllable, the RR clone is not. 8. Nope, same damage -- it's just an _awful lot_ of damage. It's worth noting that the R-copied spells do more damage than the base ones. 9. Nope Good questions!
  Rioter Comments
: A range indicator like karma's e would be more than enough. C:
That, we can try. No guarantees it'll be good enough to ship, but we'll certainly try it.
: Can we have a better indicator on her q and e, showing the range these abilities can activate the seeds?
Unfortunately, we're limited by tech here. It's something we've looked into many times -- we can do something like Lulu/Orianna's offset indicator for one object, but nothing that conditionally toggles on and off for multiple objects as you move the reticle around. We also tried things like showing a glow where the spell would spawn plants, but that ended up doing more harm than good--it made the spell itself really noisy and look a fair bit worse. Certainly open to any solution we can discover, but at the moment not aware of any that we can do with current tech.
: Those examples seem awful specific to qualify as "actually does matter quite a bit". Those examples don't actually change my argument, either. Whether or not a champion's attacks are dealing 2 damage or 2.264 damage with BORK (6% of 4.4 health) doesn't change the number of attacks a champion has to perform to kill the plant. It's 2 attacks versus 4 health and 3 attacks versus 4.4/4.8/5.2/5.6/6 health. Because a champion's attack deals _at least_ 2 damage, it doesn't matter about the fraction unless it actually manages to become 3 damage. And even if the attacker somehow increases the damage dealt by their attacks to 3 (BORK on Teemo, maybe?) - this doesn't benefit Zyra. Now they kill her plants in 2 attacks, despite the fact she's invested in giving her plants more health. On live, damage over times and proc damage do not affect plants - so Draven, Teemo and Tristana all deal 2 damage per attack and require 3 attacks to kill a plant. I fail to see how making damage over times and proc damage affect plants, to a minuscule degree, and have Zyra's plant health also increase by a minuscule degree has any net gain to be worth bothering making either change. The two sets of changes just cancel each other out and have no gameplay effect at all on other non-niche/super-specific scenarios. EDIT: Sorry, my maths failed. At 2 damage per attack it takes 2 attacks to deal 4 health. At 2.2 damage per attack with BORK (versus 4 health), it still takes 2 attacks. At 2 damage per attack it now takes 3 attacks to deal 4.4 health. At 2.264 damage per attack with BORK (versus 4.4 health), it's back to taking 2 attacks. The implementation of minuscule (unreadable) damage values only serves to cancel out the changes in her health. So the passive does nothing versus the non-edge-case-champions (i.e. people not using BORK or dots) and only serves to cancel out BORK and DOTs for people who are using them. So to summarize: the passive on Zyra's W has zero output that Zyra players will notice. I apologize for saying "functionally useless", but the only function is to counter an undocumented new feature.
Apologies, I was unclear -- the same way that autoattacks always deal 2 damage, procs, DoT ticks and so forth always deal a set amount of damage -- so BoTRK for example always deals 0.5 damage.
: ...Would it be too much to ask to have the plant health numbers rescaled such that every piece of damage dealt to them was visible? It seems... not that great to have a mechanic like that be completely invisible to players, from a UI perspective. (I'd ask if you could show the fractional health and fractional damage instead, but I suspect that would be more work from a technical perspective.)
We feel it's one of those times where detail fights clarity -- the health bar is quite accurate and gets the job done; as you rank W, it gets bigger, and each little 10% bump shows. We'd much rather people rely on that for Zyra plants than have to click the plant and look at its character sheet.
: Happy you asked! 1. New Q shape has a couple reasons -- first, the bigger rectangle lets her stretch to get more of her new passive seeds; it would be tough to spawn many plants with the old shape. Second, it being a rectangle adds a bit more play to the spell -- a circle is used roughly the same way in most situations, now it changes a bit depending on what angle you're approaching the fight from. Lastly, people dodging your E have to move side to side, so the new Q shape has some neat synergy there. 2. Rylai's/Liandry's is probably still best on her; we don't think the CDR loss should effect this too much given most folks ranked her W third. This seems like a good one to watch though. 3. Seed spawn range is based on walked distance, so they can spawn around corners a short way but typically won't. (EDIT)If Zyra is hiding in a bush, the passive will wait to spawn seeds until she leaves or casts a spell. If enemies can't see Zyra, they won't see the placement missile or where the seed came from -- they'll only see it when it appears. 4. When Zyra begins casting Q or E, all seeds that will become plants flash for her -- enemies don't see this currently. If it turns out they do need that clarity to be able to fight Zyra, we can certainly add it for them too; we haven't yet mainly because Zyra puts lots of stuff on the screen as is, so we wanted to keep particle clutter to a minimum. 5. Intended. With so many plants on the field now -- 4-6 is pretty common -- having all those range indicators gets really really messy xD
Re: 3, we're going to try a version where passive seeds will wait while Zyra is hiding in a brush, spawning when she leaves or casts a spell / attacks.
: The only thing that I don't like about this is that it really feels like her W and Passive are the same ability. In terms of actives they both do the exact same thing in basically the same way. I just just feel like if you're going to be changing her passive to seed generation there's better things you could do wit W.
We tried several different versions of W, actually -- what we found consistently was that Zyra players very much missed being able to control their seed placements. It's one of the most unique things about current Zyra; removing it also tilts the balance between actively controlled seeds and passively spawned ones.
: Would you consider not allowing people to rank W at level 1? Just because considering seeds no longer give vision, there is literally no reason to get the W at level 1 (just like Zilean's W).
> [{quoted}](name=Thief of Time,realm=PBE,application-id=2EAF660193FA3B668D7234B3AEBB530C5AB7F651,discussion-id=dGijBlXB,comment-id=004a,timestamp=2016-04-21T12:08:04.792+0000) > > Would you consider not allowing people to rank W at level 1? Just because considering seeds no longer give vision, there is literally no reason to get the W at level 1 (just like Zilean's W). Seems reasonable enough. I'll check it out!
: [The new passive on Rampant Growth doesn't functionally do anything.](http://boards.pbe.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/champions-gameplay-feedback/mNxqTAgj-the-new-passive-on-rampant-growth-doesnt-functionally-do-anything) tl:dr; PASSIVE: At rank 1, plants require an extra attack from champions, dragon and minions/monsters to kill (5 health). At rank 3, minions/monsters require a further attack to kill (6 health)." Issues 1. The amount of health they have rounds up. 4 + 10 / 20 / 30 / 40 / 50% equates to 5 / 5 / 6 / 6 / 6. There is no reason to improve the ability after rank 3. 2. The passive is worded in an unreadable way. Can't it just say "Increases the health of Zyra's plant by 1 / 1 / 2 / 2 / 2, for a total of 5 / 5 / 6 / 6 / 6"? 3. The full value of the passive is achieved at rank 1. Champion basic attacks deal 2 and abilities deal 3 damage, meaning it takes 2 hits to kill a plant at rank 0. At rank 1 this increases to 3 basic attacks and dragon must now attack twice. Rank 3 only serves to add 1 extra health versus minions and requires dragon to attack twice. Possible solutions: * Change the base health to 3 and make the passive grant + 1 / 1 / 2 / 2 / 3. This solves the max-rank incentive, and also nerfs the amount of health she has available at level 1. It also requires rank 2 to for her plants to start tanking multiple dragon attacks. (Did you intend for her to be jungle so easily?) This does not address the fact the passive is only useful versus minions. * Change their health to 3 + 1 / 2 / 3 / 4 / 5 or 4 + 0 / 1 / 2 / 3 / 4 (she probably doesn't need the rank-1 improvement given it already grants her on-demand seeds), for a maximum of 8 health at rank 5. This solves the max-rank incentive, as well as the incentive versus champions. 2 / 2 / 3 / 3 / 4 / 4 attacks or 2 / 2 / 2 / 2 / 3 / 3 abilities to kill. There's no max-rank incentive versus champions, but it's an improvement to the current passive. * Change the base health to 3 and make Stranglethorns passively grants + 1 / 2 / 3 bonus plant health, for a maximum of 6. For Rampant Growth, it now grants the passive: "Zyra's plants last for an additional 1 / 2 / 3 / 4 / 5 seconds.", or whatever scaling you like, and adjust the base duration to your taste. The passive could also reduce the cooldown on Garden of Thorns, instead of it scaling with level. That said, tying an increase in plant health that only really impacts minions to her ultimate seems weird, the above solution is probably better. * Flatten her plant's health or have it scale with ranks in Stranglethorns. The damage of Zyra's plants now scales with ranks in W. This allows Zyra players to choose if they would like higher burst or higher DPS, at least early-mid game. As with Cassiopeia, you could keep the per-level and have ranks in W simply add a bonus value. * If W grants bonus damage, Stranglethorns could instead empower plants with invulnerability. * Stranglethorns could leave behind a thicket for an extended duration beyond the 2 seconds, retaining Zyra's zone control power by giving her a persistent zone that she's strong in for a while. (Her innate and W promote far too much of a strong pusher - constantly moving her pieces forward, which isn't a bad theme, but her theme has always been "this land is mine".) P.S. As a complete aside, can you disable her ability to take W at level 1? Now that her seeds do not grant sight, there is no reason for her to have access at level 1.
The fractional health actually does matter quite a bit, even though it doesn't show when you click on the plant and see the 5/5 or etc on its card. Things like damage over time, proc damage (so Blade of the Ruined King, certain character passives, etc) all do fractional damage to Zyra plants.
: Occurred for me as well. Not sure if anyone else has mentioned, but it effects enemy champions as well as minions (bots). Seems like the seeds don't have that green glow like the others that are spawned.
> [{quoted}](name=Folium,realm=PBE,application-id=2EAF660193FA3B668D7234B3AEBB530C5AB7F651,discussion-id=dGijBlXB,comment-id=00130000000000000000,timestamp=2016-04-19T23:03:35.438+0000) > > Occurred for me as well. Not sure if anyone else has mentioned, but it effects enemy champions as well as minions (bots). Seems like the seeds don't have that green glow like the others that are spawned. I've heard it's also happening with Caitlyn traps and Syndra spheres. :O
: Here's a thought though.... I'm going to miss being able to fnatic bush with Zyra if the enemy doesn't respect my zone areas. SO.... why not just...have seeds invisible to the enemy? I mean.... they are seeds after all.... underground and all.... I know thats asking for a lot... or maybe just the passive seeds are invisible... idk... I just don't like having the same feeling that {{champion:136}} will have sitting in a bush knowing i cant try a tactic that i was able to before.
> [{quoted}](name=Zyras Evelynn,realm=PBE,application-id=2EAF660193FA3B668D7234B3AEBB530C5AB7F651,discussion-id=dGijBlXB,comment-id=0027,timestamp=2016-04-19T22:46:01.906+0000) > > Here's a thought though.... I'm going to miss being able to fnatic bush with Zyra if the enemy doesn't respect my zone areas. SO.... why not just...have seeds invisible to the enemy? I mean.... they are seeds after all.... underground and all.... I know thats asking for a lot... or maybe just the passive seeds are invisible... idk... I just don't like having the same feeling that {{champion:136}} will have sitting in a bush knowing i cant try a tactic that i was able to before. In our testing, Zyra has still been really brutal with her ambushes. Knowing when the next seed will spawn gives her the chance to play around it, and having so many more seeds out means the ambushes do a lot more damage when they happen.
: Right now her W level 1 makes her have 4HP plants. Rank 2 5HP and rank 3 6HP. No scaling further.
> [{quoted}](name=Dennisek123,realm=PBE,application-id=2EAF660193FA3B668D7234B3AEBB530C5AB7F651,discussion-id=dGijBlXB,comment-id=000700000000,timestamp=2016-04-19T22:34:49.198+0000) > > Right now her W level 1 makes her have 4HP plants. Rank 2 5HP and rank 3 6HP. No scaling further. They do gain health every rank and have fractional HP, it just rounds weirdly -- the health bar is quite accurate, but the actual number that shows when you click on the plant is only vaguely correct.
: When passive seeds spawn 2 at a time, they can sometimes spawn right next to each other. Fairly high reproduction rate.
> [{quoted}](name=Gaymer7,realm=PBE,application-id=2EAF660193FA3B668D7234B3AEBB530C5AB7F651,discussion-id=dGijBlXB,comment-id=0019,timestamp=2016-04-19T21:41:29.219+0000) > > When passive seeds spawn 2 at a time, they can sometimes spawn right next to each other. Fairly high reproduction rate. To clarify -- do the 2 new ones appear next to each other, or does one of the two near ones appear next to an existing seed?
: BUG: WHEN I DIE AND GO BACK TO BASE, THE PASSIVE DOESNT START WORKING UNTIL I REACH THE INHIB TOWER. <3 IT'S STILL CUTE THO /EDIT okay it started working when i died a different time. it's random i guess.
> [{quoted}](name=June,realm=PBE,application-id=2EAF660193FA3B668D7234B3AEBB530C5AB7F651,discussion-id=dGijBlXB,comment-id=0018,timestamp=2016-04-19T21:41:27.234+0000) > > BUG: > WHEN I DIE AND GO BACK TO BASE, THE PASSIVE DOESNT START WORKING UNTIL I REACH THE INHIB TOWER. > > &lt;3 IT&#x27;S STILL CUTE THO > > /EDIT okay it started working when i died a different time. it&#x27;s random i guess. Passive doesn't spawn seeds in base super early in the game, to prevent clutter.
: W says it increases the HP % of plants. Does this mean that they have regular HP now, instead of their # of hit based system? If so, I am concerned that you may have just absolutely gutted my main jungler -_-
> [{quoted}](name=Sjield,realm=PBE,application-id=2EAF660193FA3B668D7234B3AEBB530C5AB7F651,discussion-id=dGijBlXB,comment-id=001b,timestamp=2016-04-19T21:57:13.568+0000) > > W says it increases the HP % of plants. > > Does this mean that they have regular HP now, instead of their # of hit based system? > > If so, I am concerned that you may have just absolutely gutted my main jungler -_- They still have the # of hit system.
: > [{quoted}](name=20thCenturyFaux,realm=PBE,application-id=2EAF660193FA3B668D7234B3AEBB530C5AB7F651,discussion-id=dGijBlXB,comment-id=000100000001,timestamp=2016-04-19T21:36:52.540+0000) > > It&#x27;s interesting! There&#x27;s some trickiness to it though--it would make playing against Zyra much more difficult since you couldn&#x27;t know where the E was going to start, and it would also make Zyra players learn a new input pattern. That last one isn&#x27;t a deal breaker, just an increase to cost, but the first one is tough... one of the things keeping Zyra&#x27;s power in check is that the root has good counterplay. If she could use the Viktor targetting to start the root right on top of someone, that seems like that could be pretty tough to play against. Yeah, I thought about that when I posted this. While I do agree with that point, maybe it wouldn't be /too/ bad since it's not a stun, and the first few ranks of grasping roots don't last that long. On another note, her passive seems to have some sort of 'not-so-rng-pattern'; is there some sort of algorithm? Like: if zyra's near a bush, a seed has a greater chance to spawn there, or: if there is a wall near zyra, there is a greater chance for a seed to spawn on the other side? Mostly I noticed they spawn in the direction you're facing a lot, and in nearby bushes.
> [{quoted}](name=xDiostukosx,realm=PBE,application-id=2EAF660193FA3B668D7234B3AEBB530C5AB7F651,discussion-id=dGijBlXB,comment-id=0001000000010000,timestamp=2016-04-19T21:41:09.322+0000) > > Yeah, I thought about that when I posted this. While I do agree with that point, maybe it wouldn&#x27;t be /too/ bad since it&#x27;s not a stun, and the first few ranks of grasping roots don&#x27;t last that long. > > On another note, her passive seems to have some sort of &#x27;not-so-rng-pattern&#x27;; is there some sort of algorithm? Like: if zyra&#x27;s near a bush, a seed has a greater chance to spawn there, or: if there is a wall near zyra, there is a greater chance for a seed to spawn on the other side? > > Mostly I noticed they spawn in the direction you&#x27;re facing a lot, and in nearby bushes. There's a really complex algorithm, yeah. It likes brushes, doesn't like being right on top of walls, etc etc etc. Too many behaviors to list. The ideas that you get a feel for it after playing Zyra a while, but it never ends up being wholly predictable.
: Nice! Thanks :D Another question: what was the rationale behind removing the small vision around seeds?
> [{quoted}](name=Thief of Time,realm=PBE,application-id=2EAF660193FA3B668D7234B3AEBB530C5AB7F651,discussion-id=dGijBlXB,comment-id=000500000000,timestamp=2016-04-19T22:00:49.102+0000) > > Nice! Thanks :D > > Another question: what was the rationale behind removing the small vision around seeds? With so many seeds being spawned all over the place, the ambient vision became a bit too powerful; on top of that, enemy champs sneaking around had to watch their feet. Instead of being able to click in the bot jungle from mid inner, say, you had to watch yourself the whole way through in case the pathing took you by a seed. You had to bring yourself all the way across the map with little movements instead of watching the fight or etc.
: Anyway, right now his Recommended Core is: boots, Catalyst, NLR. That made much more sense in the version where RoA built out of NLR. You might want to change that - I don't think anyone would feel good having both RoA and Rylai, that's way too much gold dumped into health. CDR for more bombs would be nice if the bombs didn't require a full combo, which is hard to get. Also raw CDR without mana sustain to back it up is not that good. Sorcs contribute to Brand's raw burst. They (and HG) might be weaker now that Blaze got severely nerfed, but going full mpen should remain one of the options.
> [{quoted}](name=Pyroblasty,realm=PBE,application-id=2EAF660193FA3B668D7234B3AEBB530C5AB7F651,discussion-id=VbtPmvpU,comment-id=000900000000,timestamp=2016-04-19T21:48:14.059+0000) > > Anyway, right now his Recommended Core is: boots, Catalyst, NLR. That made much more sense in the version where RoA built out of NLR. You might want to change that - I don&#x27;t think anyone would feel good having both RoA and Rylai, that&#x27;s way too much gold dumped into health. > > CDR for more bombs would be nice if the bombs didn&#x27;t require a full combo, which is hard to get. Also raw CDR without mana sustain to back it up is not that good. > > Sorcs contribute to Brand&#x27;s raw burst. They (and HG) might be weaker now that Blaze got severely nerfed, but going full mpen should remain one of the options. Oooohhhh, good catch! That's absolutely why the core was catalyst + NLR.
: Hey 20thCenturyFaux, just had a question, loving Zyra mid as she is on Live. Is she balanced for support or midlane ? Thx !
> [{quoted}](name=Big Bad Dydy,realm=PBE,application-id=2EAF660193FA3B668D7234B3AEBB530C5AB7F651,discussion-id=dGijBlXB,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2016-04-19T20:44:04.653+0000) > > Hey 20thCenturyFaux, just had a question, loving Zyra mid as she is on Live. > Is she balanced for support or midlane ? > > Thx ! Currently trying to keep those as even as possible, per the results of the update thread a while back.
: I'm liking the changes! :D I've played her in one custom game so far and I find seed spawning and growing plants is much nicer. It's so nice not to have that old passive any more. :P One thing I find as a support is, even with boots and alacrity (which I guess is gone now), I always end up right at the back in a chase, which means I can't snare, use my ult, or otherwise try and stop my ADC from committing suicide. Did you consider boosting her movement speed a bit?
> [{quoted}](name=Thief of Time,realm=PBE,application-id=2EAF660193FA3B668D7234B3AEBB530C5AB7F651,discussion-id=dGijBlXB,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2016-04-19T20:44:16.464+0000) > > I&#x27;m liking the changes! :D I&#x27;ve played her in one custom game so far and I find seed spawning and growing plants is much nicer. It&#x27;s so nice not to have that old passive any more. :P > > One thing I find as a support is, even with boots and alacrity (which I guess is gone now), I always end up right at the back in a chase, which means I can&#x27;t snare, use my ult, or otherwise try and stop my ADC from committing suicide. Did you consider boosting her movement speed a bit? Yep! She has +15 movespeed now.
: Few questions! Now that WotA is removed, will her plants count as single-target damage? The W passive doesnt work on PBE right now. its 5->6 at 3rd rank, but wont become 7,5 at rank 5, or am i doing a mistake?
> [{quoted}](name=Dennisek123,realm=PBE,application-id=2EAF660193FA3B668D7234B3AEBB530C5AB7F651,discussion-id=dGijBlXB,comment-id=0007,timestamp=2016-04-19T20:49:02.358+0000) > > Few questions! > > Now that WotA is removed, will her plants count as single-target damage? > The W passive doesnt work on PBE right now. its 5-&gt;6 at 3rd rank, but wont become 7,5 at rank 5, or am i doing a mistake? That's... odd. Her W passive should be 10-50% health, it shouldn't be 5-7.5 anymore. Checking into this. Edit -- her plants live 5 seconds at level 1 Zyra, up to 7.5 seconds at level 18 Zyra. Her W ranks give the plants bonus HP, maxing out at 6 total HP at rank 5 W. Does that explain what you're seeing?
: I have a few (?) questions about Zyra's new passive. At the MYMU reveal page, it says Zyra will have a limit of seeds on the map and that they will become faster and last longer with level. So that means a seed will pop up as soon as another expires? I'm curious to know how that will work with Zyra moving around the map. For mid/support roles, I guess there would be a lot of seeds in her initial lane and they would stay there for a while even after she leaves to gank another lane, hypothetically, as the seeds take longer to expire? I thought it would be nice to have some sort of mechanism that makes seeds last longer in lanes with zyra around and expire faster (or at the current live rate) when she's absent, making her seeds pop up faster at every new place she visits, as the limit would not be all filled up. I don't know if that could be an issue in the late game, as there aren't lanes anymore and Zyra would have long-lasting seeds at isolated places clustering the seed limit. (Unless that's not an issue with her new passive, I'm still trying to understand how it works and its possible scenarios) Also, will Zyra's seeds become plants as Q/E are placed **near** them (new) or directly over them (live)? Thanks! The rework looks great and I can't wait to test it. I've been playing Zyra a lot more and these changes are very welcome.
> [{quoted}](name=Paris Hilton,realm=PBE,application-id=2EAF660193FA3B668D7234B3AEBB530C5AB7F651,discussion-id=dGijBlXB,comment-id=0009,timestamp=2016-04-19T20:49:45.605+0000) > > I have a few (?) questions about Zyra&#x27;s new passive. > > At the MYMU reveal page, it says Zyra will have a limit of seeds on the map and that they will become faster and last longer with level. So that means a seed will pop up as soon as another expires? I&#x27;m curious to know how that will work with Zyra moving around the map. For mid/support roles, I guess there would be a lot of seeds in her initial lane and they would stay there for a while even after she leaves to gank another lane, hypothetically, as the seeds take longer to expire? > I thought it would be nice to have some sort of mechanism that makes seeds last longer in lanes with zyra around and expire faster (or at the current live rate) when she&#x27;s absent, making her seeds pop up faster at every new place she visits, as the limit would not be all filled up. I don&#x27;t know if that could be an issue in the late game, as there aren&#x27;t lanes anymore and Zyra would have long-lasting seeds at isolated places clustering the seed limit. > > (Unless that&#x27;s not an issue with her new passive, I&#x27;m still trying to understand how it works and its possible scenarios) > > Also, will Zyra&#x27;s seeds become plants as Q/E are placed **near** them (new) or directly over them (live)? > > Thanks! The rework looks great and I can&#x27;t wait to test it. I&#x27;ve been playing Zyra a lot more and these changes are very welcome. Near them -- on live, E spawns plants off seeds it travels near without needing to hit them directly. Q now does the same stuff. Once Zyra has 8 seeds in the world, the oldest will die as new ones appear. Seeds don't last any longer per level, though -- should be 45 seconds all game.
: I'm waiting for this reply. The first thing that popped on my head is "will this screw ambushes, one of the main pros for her".
> [{quoted}](name=Vicelus,realm=PBE,application-id=2EAF660193FA3B668D7234B3AEBB530C5AB7F651,discussion-id=dGijBlXB,comment-id=00030000,timestamp=2016-04-19T21:00:33.493+0000) > > I&#x27;m waiting for this reply. The first thing that popped on my head is &quot;will this screw ambushes, one of the main pros for her&quot;. The seed placement particles won't play, so if a seed appears where enemies can see it they won't know where it came from -- just that a Zyra is somewhere nearby. edit -- we're now trying a version where the seed will wait to spawn if Zyra is hiding in a brush
: what was the bug with the haunted zyra and wilfire skins by the way? hehe. have a nice day. thank you so much. i don't really have questions right now but i will come back later and ask some when i do. i'm just overwhelmed and excited!! :D
> [{quoted}](name=June,realm=PBE,application-id=2EAF660193FA3B668D7234B3AEBB530C5AB7F651,discussion-id=dGijBlXB,comment-id=000e,timestamp=2016-04-19T21:04:31.302+0000) > > what was the bug with the haunted zyra and wilfire skins by the way? hehe. > > > have a nice day. thank you so much. i don&#x27;t really have questions right now but i will come back later and ask some when i do. i&#x27;m just overwhelmed and excited!! :D Their particle files didn't overwrite properly, so they were playing the old Q effects. It looked like a circle but hit like the rectangle, essentially
: Hey! I just wanted to say that this made one Zyra main happy as hell :) Keep up the good work. One question, will she get higher base movement speed or any higher base stats? thank you! :3 And is her root duration the same at all levels?
> [{quoted}](name=DollyTheSheep,realm=PBE,application-id=2EAF660193FA3B668D7234B3AEBB530C5AB7F651,discussion-id=dGijBlXB,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2016-04-19T20:37:26.884+0000) > > Hey! I just wanted to say that this made one Zyra main happy as hell :) Keep up the good work. One question, will she get higher base movement speed or any higher base stats? thank you! :3 > And is her root duration the same at all levels? Base MS +15 ^^
: Can you still place seeds with W? Because atm it seems like you are just randomly hoping for some good passive seeds, and not really trying to combo them with your spells.
> [{quoted}](name=MK SteekStar,realm=PBE,application-id=2EAF660193FA3B668D7234B3AEBB530C5AB7F651,discussion-id=dGijBlXB,comment-id=0015,timestamp=2016-04-19T21:34:02.055+0000) > > Can you still place seeds with W? Because atm it seems like you are just randomly hoping for some good passive seeds, and not really trying to combo them with your spells. Yep, you still get the 2 seeds from W.
: Hey there, D1 mid/top Zyra only here. I think you did a great job on the update, but I have a few concerns. First of all, I'm just curious, why was Zyra's Q changed to a rectangular shape? Second, it doesn't look like her ult CD has been reduced which doesn't make sense to me because it already lagged behind my teammates' ult CD's before, and now the CDR from W is gone. Sure, more AP items give CDR now but neither Liandry's or Rylai's do which are core items Zyra needs to build every game. Other mages have lower CD ults but can build CDR more freely. I also liked Zyra's flexibility by being able to function without a CDR/Mana item before, so I hope it's not mandatory to build one now. Third, I hope plants won't be spawning over walls (and outside of bushes, but I doubt that'll be the case) as Zyra is great for setting up ambushing and I don't want to be a gimmicky champion like Illaoi who relies on the enemy to come to me. Finally, while Zyra's spells spawning plants near the area gives her some strengths, it also seems to go against Riot's usual policy of clarity and it's hard to tell whether a plant will or will not spawn. Otherwise, you've done a great job on the rework. Thanks for your effort! EDIT: Would also like to know whether removal of plant range indicators was intended or just a bug, I'd rather have it show for both me and my enemies for clarity purposes if it has to be changed from the live functionality.
Happy you asked! 1. New Q shape has a couple reasons -- first, the bigger rectangle lets her stretch to get more of her new passive seeds; it would be tough to spawn many plants with the old shape. Second, it being a rectangle adds a bit more play to the spell -- a circle is used roughly the same way in most situations, now it changes a bit depending on what angle you're approaching the fight from. Lastly, people dodging your E have to move side to side, so the new Q shape has some neat synergy there. 2. Rylai's/Liandry's is probably still best on her; we don't think the CDR loss should effect this too much given most folks ranked her W third. This seems like a good one to watch though. 3. Seed spawn range is based on walked distance, so they can spawn around corners a short way but typically won't. (EDIT)If Zyra is hiding in a bush, the passive will wait to spawn seeds until she leaves or casts a spell. If enemies can't see Zyra, they won't see the placement missile or where the seed came from -- they'll only see it when it appears. 4. When Zyra begins casting Q or E, all seeds that will become plants flash for her -- enemies don't see this currently. If it turns out they do need that clarity to be able to fight Zyra, we can certainly add it for them too; we haven't yet mainly because Zyra puts lots of stuff on the screen as is, so we wanted to keep particle clutter to a minimum. 5. Intended. With so many plants on the field now -- 4-6 is pretty common -- having all those range indicators gets really really messy xD
: THE DEADLY SPINES NAME CHANGE TO THE Q... DEADLY BLOOM TO DEADLY SPINES. PRETTY COOL that you changed the name of it. it's a completely different spell! it's awesome. I love the length of it and like wow. I love the scaling HP but I have yet to test it in late game phase so I'm looking forward to that. I love the texture update. I love the passive. I love max 8. /edit oh i thought it was scaling hp so its only 10% max hp at all times? that's interesting but i am still excited to test it!! -- GOING INTO MY FIRST REAL GAME NOW !
> [{quoted}](name=June,realm=PBE,application-id=2EAF660193FA3B668D7234B3AEBB530C5AB7F651,discussion-id=dGijBlXB,comment-id=0012,timestamp=2016-04-19T21:24:09.527+0000) > > THE DEADLY SPINES NAME CHANGE TO THE Q... DEADLY BLOOM TO DEADLY SPINES. PRETTY COOL that you changed the name of it. it&#x27;s a completely different spell! it&#x27;s awesome. I love the length of it and like wow. I love the scaling HP but I have yet to test it in late game phase so I&#x27;m looking forward to that. I love the texture update. I love the passive. I love max 8. > > > /edit oh i thought it was scaling hp so its only 10% max hp at all times? that&#x27;s interesting but i am still excited to test it!! -- GOING INTO MY FIRST REAL GAME NOW ! It should be +10% at rank 1 in W, scaling up to +50% at rank 5. Glad you're excited ^^
: > [{quoted}](name=xDiostukosx,realm=PBE,application-id=2EAF660193FA3B668D7234B3AEBB530C5AB7F651,discussion-id=dGijBlXB,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2016-04-19T20:38:47.777+0000) > I posted this in another thread: > > &quot;Did anyone ever have the idea to change her E to work similar to Viktor&#x27;s laser? Where you could aim the direction it goes? > > It would synergize well with her new Q imo.&quot; This would be really sweet, match her theme of rampant growth/germination well and also allow you to feel like the Zyra from the League cinematic video when she casts this against Ahri. I would totally love this.
> [{quoted}](name=Mid0rii,realm=PBE,application-id=2EAF660193FA3B668D7234B3AEBB530C5AB7F651,discussion-id=dGijBlXB,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2016-04-19T21:29:25.949+0000) > > This would be really sweet, match her theme of rampant growth/germination well and also allow you to feel like the Zyra from the League cinematic video when she casts this against Ahri. > > I would totally love this. It's interesting! There's some trickiness to it though--it would make playing against Zyra much more difficult since you couldn't know where the E was going to start, and it would also make Zyra players learn a new input pattern. That last one isn't a deal breaker, just an increase to cost, but the first one is tough... one of the things keeping Zyra's power in check is that the root has good counterplay. If she could use the Viktor targetting to start the root right on top of someone, that seems like that could be pretty tough to play against.
: MYMU - Zyra discussion
Oops, forgot to include the base MS in the changelist. Added that ^^
: Current Zyra plants can't survive a single tower shot. Since towers instantly attack champion minions does the increased plant health upon leveling allow her plants to survive at least one tower shot?
> [{quoted}](name=Drafar,realm=PBE,application-id=2EAF660193FA3B668D7234B3AEBB530C5AB7F651,discussion-id=dGijBlXB,comment-id=000b,timestamp=2016-04-19T20:52:59.131+0000) > > Current Zyra plants can&#x27;t survive a single tower shot. Since towers instantly attack champion minions does the increased plant health upon leveling allow her plants to survive at least one tower shot? The plants actually start at 2 health and with the passive get back to 3, so they don't have more health than normal. That said, we did try a version like that--it ended up pretty painful for Zyra's enemies, given that she has so very many more plants than before. If Zyra can roll up to a tower and drop 4 plants that each soak two tower shots, then have two more ready by the time those die... yikes xD
: Zyra passive bug (only have a picture) https://gyazo.com/181349ee3a819d25714132ffab1b1738
> [{quoted}](name=Frostify,realm=PBE,application-id=2EAF660193FA3B668D7234B3AEBB530C5AB7F651,discussion-id=dGijBlXB,comment-id=0013,timestamp=2016-04-19T21:27:34.155+0000) > > Zyra passive bug (only have a picture) https://gyazo.com/181349ee3a819d25714132ffab1b1738 O.o Definitely looking into this
: I really expected him to change more but I think those changes are quite interesting. I may be wrong but did u promise to change his E?
> [{quoted}](name=Unite4320,realm=PBE,application-id=2EAF660193FA3B668D7234B3AEBB530C5AB7F651,discussion-id=VbtPmvpU,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2016-04-19T20:24:33.974+0000) > > I really expected him to change more but I think those changes are quite interesting. I may be wrong but did u promise to change his E? Generally no, we certainly looked at it though. Here's what we put in the update thread a while back: > E's a tricky one. It's sort of a backup singer on Brand's kit--less exciting, but serves as glue to hold the rest together. On top of that, every time we try making E more awesome it gets mandatory to cast it in teamfights, which typically involves putting Brand way closer to danger than he'd prefer to be. We could just delete the spell and make a brand new one, but that'd take power budget--power that's got to come from somewhere else on the kit. Tricky!
: I know you guys don't balance champions based on maps other than Summoners Rift, and I am not asking you to do so, but do you guys have any info on how Brand's new passive AOE interacts with ARAM, as champions are usually bundled up together? I'm really excited to see how strong it can be! The reworks, especially Brand's, seem great on paper and I'll love to give more feedback as soon as I get a chance to test them. Good job!
> [{quoted}](name=Paris Hilton,realm=PBE,application-id=2EAF660193FA3B668D7234B3AEBB530C5AB7F651,discussion-id=VbtPmvpU,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2016-04-19T20:26:09.552+0000) > > I know you guys don&#x27;t balance champions based on maps other than Summoners Rift, and I am not asking you to do so, but do you guys have any info on how Brand&#x27;s new passive AOE interacts with ARAM, as champions are usually bundled up together? I&#x27;m really excited to see how strong it can be! > The reworks, especially Brand&#x27;s, seem great on paper and I&#x27;ll love to give more feedback as soon as I get a chance to test them. Good job! I'll admit I'm a little scared of what he'll do on ARAM XD
: and the "bomb" get to other champ inside the first one if they are touched by the explosion ?
The explosion adds a stack of blaze, so it could build a bomb on another champ if they already have 2 stacks, or contribute to getting them there!
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20thCenturyFaux

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