: Practice tool selects champion at random
yah me to but remember guys we can all go back to using custom games like we used to. slower but it works
: [Here](https://boards.pbe.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/bugs/EQsT052L-practice-tool-selects-champion-at-random) ya go. It's high on the hot page, but I recommend you read the PBE boards by using the [New] or [Recent] tab.
ok thanks i tried searching key words next time ill scroll through the hot, new, and recent tab
: It has already been reported. Please adhere to the following from [[HOW-TO] Report Bugs on the PBE](http://boards.pbe.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/bugs/CF5EEDC8FF5AC1A896F517E2C7AE4650C472807F-how-to-report-bugs-on-the-pbe) - An Official Riot Post. > First things first though: Please take a look through the community and see if your bug has been reported already. Found something identical or even similar? Comment in that thread with your particular case, and upvote the original post for being helpful :)
i did try to find it. but i couldnt find it. could u post the link to where it was reported
Rioter Comments
: No jungler can reach there in time and since the enemy top or mid is dealing with the shoved wave they won't even join. And you'd literally have to set up shop to actually stop someone from taking it. Free HP and Mana to attain EASILY ruining lane match ups ridiculously also isn't stopped because if a jungler so happens to setup shop that means their laner will take it completely destroying the lane matchup regardless. It's unhealthy and toxic. Mid-game it's closer to being reasonable but it should not be enabled until about 15 or 20min otherwise there'll be less involved with actually playing a lane since it'll come down to "dominate your lane matchup? Go take a free heal and mana restore plant to oppress further!!!". Tested it, done it countless times, it'll ruin the game no jungler is going to stop it since they wont be at mid and top at the same time, not to mention mobility tools make it too easy to collect regardless of short minislows.
i think you are right with the current sytem of spawning. but i think it can be made to work. i posted some suggested changes to the honeyfruit here. http://boards.pbe.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/champions-gameplay-feedback/Z8r9XqdO-plant-change-ideas but the short version is to have the fruit spawn in random locations that are only at the middle of the river not one on each side of river, and have them re-spawn on a timer that is set but the location be random this way a well timed gank then helping to push the lane can result in the jungler walking the laner out to get a fruit. or it can be easer for a jungler to camp the fruit for the laner to show up because they know the time. basically i think that this adds counterplay. that being said i think that these fruit will be abused at low level play no mater what you do to them. simply because at low level people do not know how to punish plays properly. however i think that the game should be balanced around pro play and i think that adding in these types of mind game counterplays is good. one final idea that i mention in my post is that it might be a good idea to add in a feature that a jungler can smite a plant that is not yet fully grown this would NOT trigger its effect just remove it. smite is a valuable enough resorce in the jungle that i think this is ok. it is not like the jungler can smite every plant rendering the plant irrelevant but smiting a not yet fully grown plant that you think an enemy laner will come get is again adding more counterplay.
Rioter Comments
: So we're going to say wards can stop someone taking honeyfruit when jungler isn't even close to stop it esp with mobility champs able to get it that much cleaner. Hell no. What CS to give up????? Literally just win a trade, shove and take it, if you can't do that with mobility tools in the game why are you laning? It's simple, read where the jungler is, if you're already at an advantage press it and shove->take honeyfruit come back even more ahead than before. Your argument would work if it wasn't so pisspoor easy and reliable to grab for laners even immobile ones like darius. This plant is toxic and unhealthy as long as it's touchable by laners and there's no argument for what can be done to counter them since it's already been tested countless times on how simple they are to grab.
no its a prime spot for a JUNGLER to ward the when someone comes to take it you can gank them
: Plant Spawn System Iteration 10/25
i think that the best thing to do is make the plants have distinct spawn identities that promote fair and interesting situations that still are somewhat random to avoid optimization. TL:DR blast cone- less of them. more random placement and time. longer time as a sprout so people can prep for them scryer's bloom- consistent locations and spawn patern. but random time. honeyfruit- random location, consistent time. blast cones- should feel very random but less common then they are now. them being random all the time just feels bad BECAUSE of the clutter. remove the clutter and i think having a random feel to the location of the blast cones is good. also i would make the blast cones have a much longer period of time that you can see it growing but not use it yet that way even tho the location is random smart players will be able to note their location and use them later. scryer's bloom- these i think need to be the most consistent because vision of baron and dragon are very important. i think that these should have a randomized re-spawn time that correlates with the cross map SAME SIDE of that plant (so if re-spawn on baron skryer bloom is short for one team its short for the other and same on drag side) also i think that they should always alternate so if you get 1 of the scryers bloom locations in ur quadrant then after it dies the next one will be the other scryers bloom in that quadrant. and these should always spawn each cycle no just randomly not getting these they are to important. honeyfruit- these i think should have random location but consistent time. i think make the early game spawn area for them a bit smaller so that they are harder to get for laners. also i would make it so that they can spawn in the middle of the river not just a wall. i think the interaction of those breaking open in a teamfight middle of river is hilarious and interesting. hp vs ms interesting trade off in a team fight. as for the consistent time i think that is good because then the enemy laner can see you come back healthy having taken the fruit and knows when to go to contest it next time. BUT does not know exactly where. which makes for an interesting interaction. this is also good for junglers because even tho it has a consistent spawn time the location is contested like scutle crab and it might be on the other junglers side of the river.
: The most recent version of Nexus Siege didn't make it out with the deploy today. Sadtimes, but we'll need to put up with this one for another night. :( Once we get a new full build out you should see this fixed.
ok so the stuck in base happened to me and i tried to get out someone sugesting leaving the game then reconecting. when i tried to reconect it wwould just fail to reconect and crash every time because of this i got TEN time penalties PELASE fix this and remove the AFK penalty from my account i did NOT leave i just wanted to reconect so i could get out of base and it failed.
: [MEGATHREAD] Can't Teleport, stuck in fountain
also found that i triend exiting and coming back and when i did try and come back i repeatedly crashed
Rioter Comments
: Custom Game Not Starting
you are not talking about the thing that makes it so that you have to have more then 1 person in a custom game whenever the pbe volume is high are you?
Rioter Comments
: Apparently playing a tutorial game solved this bug and also the bug where the play button doesn't appear if you cancel a queue.
this worked on my account as well so definitely up-voted XD thanks man
: but attack speed does not make her hit harder or take less damage ; what it does it makes a basic attack marksman be efficient with building attack speed, where as corki who also has low base attack speed makes sense with it since he is a caster type and functions more like a pokey/bursty mage rather than a marksman so his basic attacks being restricted make sense
yes i know im agreeing with you in the early game you need that Atk spd because you are not spell based entirely as kindred. HOWEVER in the late game she should not scale like a normal ADC because she with her hunt has a snowball effect and if you can snowball on items AND on your passive stats that is TO OP so late game Atk spd being low compensates for this. dont wory tho if you are snowballing as you should be on kindred then you will have atk spd with your items anyway. so im just saying that i agree she needs some love but in a balanced way to much base stats will make her to OP.
: Item Recommendations for Kindred, Build Discussion
i think that she is actually an on hit champion HOWEVER DO NOT BUILD DEVOUERER! i think that you should go warrior for the early strength to try and get hunt stacks. then get a phage and a Botrk these have good synergy because they make her much stronger at ganking with the movement on phage and the slow on BotRK, and you continue to hunt people. then if i am ahead i get runnan's hurricane next if im low on stacks i get a last whisper next to make my BotRK and passive do more damage. then i get whichever i didn't get first. finally i pick up a situational last pick item by selling phage OR finish the phage into a black cleaver if i'm not a much risk of dying. this builds late game is INSANE at killing tanks with the armor pen and % health but also if stacked her passive bursts squishies faster then you might think. so i do play an auto attack style late game but my early game is more caster style. i don't get trinity because her base AD is low and trinity does not feel that great on her to me but i would change that if they buff the base ad on her. i love your post i would love to see what you think of my ideas on this forum http://boards.pbe.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/champions-gameplay-feedback/KQRLMxQh-kindred-2-champions-it-1-but-they-are-in-conflict
: Base attack speed buff for Kindred
I think i understnad that they dont want to good base stats on her because that would mean that if she snowballed with her passive combined with high base stats she would be VERY OP. BUT i think the solution is this give her GREAT base stats at level 1 and TERRIBLE base stats at level 18 this way she will have good clear damage and gank potential BUT kindred will not scale into late game automatically with levels rather to be relevant she MUST be hunting her targets and getting kills to get ahead or she will fall off also i have some more ideas for how to help kindred's kit and problems check it out on this thread i started. http://boards.pbe.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/champions-gameplay-feedback/KQRLMxQh-kindred-2-champions-it-1-but-they-are-in-conflict
: Yah, her ultimate felt wrong as soon as I read it, and worse as I've seen it in action. It does not fit her theme in the slightest, and I could have worked out a reallly cool, death/hunt themed kit for her, and....it wouldn't have looked anything like this.
what do you think about the ultimate i suggest in the text above? i think it fits the theme of hunting.
: Ok so I've played Kindred a bit now, and I'm really enjoying them but I'm feeling a large disconnect between most of their kit, and how they need to be played. I'm gonna end up repeating what a lot of other people have mentioned so far but feel the need to add my 2 cents anyway. So first thing first, Kindred's AD scalings feel very underwhelming, but since you build them focused on on-hit effects and some attack speed, you would think this wasn't much of a problem, but her kit feels like you should build them focused on pure AD, since none of it synergises with on-hit or attack speed, which boggles the mind. Now I don't think the kit needs changing at the core, but there definitely needs to be some additional effects to make the kit either line up with the idea of on-hit/attack speed, or to just be buffed with better scalings to provide additional build paths that are more rewarding. Personally, these are some changes I would like to see, and I think just one or the other is needed, not necessarily all of them: Passive: I'm fine with the passive, it's great but it also feels really strong when it comes to neutral objectives like baron and dragon since it has no cap against monsters. Personally i quite like it since it rivals Kalista's power somewhat. Q: Feels very clunky and unresponsive since the range isn't very clear and the timing of when they actually shoot the arrows seems a bit delayed. Feel like it would be better if the arrows fired during the dash, and would like a clear range indicator for the damage portion of the ability. I also feel it would benefit from better AD scalings late game, or needs to apply on-hit effects to amplify its usefulness late game. W: Pretty happy with the ability but feels a bit awkward simply due to the fact its placed at your feet, and think it could benefit from being able to fire it a short range, simply to give a bit additional chasing since at the moment, you drop it at you feet and get one extra jump out of it. Would also like to see it either scale with either Attack Speed OR on-hit effects. I feel this isn't too much to ask for, especially at a reduced rate (e.g. 50% of Kindred's AS/on-hit damage) since it already applies your passive damage at 50%. E: I don't really think much of this ability, seems kinda pointless and just thrown in as an extra ability that acts as some soft CC. I just don't get the point? Since it's AD scaling is kinda bad and the 5% max-hp damage doesn't scale with the ability the damage it does overall feels disappointing and underwhelming, and its not like you can 1) spam it or 2) proc it very easily with Devourer since the nerfs. I don't know what you could do with this to make it feel more useful, but I feel that you could maybe have the max-health damage scale with your passive stacks (at a reduced rate?), so for example say you have 4 stacks, meaning you do 5% current hp damage on-hit, your E could then instead do flat amount(+AD?) + 5(+2.5%)max-health damage. R: I love the idea of this ult, truly the pinnacle of game design (inb4 all the troll kindreds) but seriously really like the ability, but found it annoying that it was placed on the ground of the champion you select, instead of having it follow the selected champion. I'd prefer it if it followed the champion since it would make it easier to deny the enemy champions the effects of the ult, since at the moment if the enemy have more instant damage they can just bully you out from the area, and gain all the benefits for themselves. Now I'm no champion designer and also not the best player in the world, so maybe these changes wouldn't be the best thing in the world, but I think something along these lines is needed in some way just to bring her kit more in line with their build, since at the moment it feels like you rely on your Q and W early on, but by the end of the game it's just better to right click and afk.
hey i love your ideas unlike many people you seem well thought out and incredible well done would you give me some feedback on my ideas for kindred maybe if everyone gets on board in 1 forum for a cohesive change something can be done. because i think i read allot of peoples ideas and summarized them well. hope to talk to you soon! http://boards.pbe.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/champions-gameplay-feedback/KQRLMxQh-kindred-2-champions-it-1-but-they-are-in-conflict
: I love the idea of the champion. Though there have been recurring themes with their drawbacks. With those drawbacks there isn't much there in the way of benefits. I think their Kit is actually really cool and just about spot on for both theme and execution. I don't believe any abilities in her kit need to be replaced but rather tweaked in the right direction. Also, these tweaks should help them in the role they were designed for; namely jungle. For a jungler role there are quite a few things they lack that they really need. Also their kit should complement what they will most often be using in the way of items, rather than hindering. These are my suggestions on how Kindreds' should show both the theme of Hunting down any champion on the Rift; and JUST as important, Kindreds' teamwork as Lamb AND Wolf. I Really want this champion to be Great on release! I just hope this can be of some help. **Kindred Kit Tweaking** **-Passive**: Change the damage bonus from current health to missing health; I counted 9 other champions that use such a mechanic to finish off their enemies, and this would fit much better for Kindreds’ theme of a hunter who closes in on their prey. **-Q: Dance of Arrows** should have a better AD scaling, even if that means lowering the base damage; and the cooldown should scale down to around 7 seconds at 5th level, at least! I recommend changing the AD scaling of Dance of Arrows to Bonus AD rather than Total AD. With this you could give them a much greater AD scaling than just +0.20%. I would also like to add the idea of lowering the cooldown of Dance of Arrows through attack speed(much like Yasuo’s Q). My reason for this is Kindred would get much more nimble and could jump around more often. This would also give very drastic changes in playstyle depending on if someone wanted to build Kindred focused on attack speed, or go for a more raw attack damage build. This is the main reason to change the AD scaling to Bonus rather than Total. **-W: Wolf’s Frenzy** needs the most tweaking in my opinion. Instead of placing an area on the ground, that dissipates as soon as you leave it, have it grant Kindred greater auto-attack range for the 8 second duration(Similar to Kag'Maw's W). If Kindred tries to auto-attack anyone outside of the 500 range, while this ability is active, Wolf attacks them in place of Lamb. Use Wolfs’ current damage idea, but add on a 15%(+1% every 15 BONUS AD) slow, when an enemy champion is attacked in the **extended range** only; also if an enemy champion is attacked **WITHIN** the 500 range it switches back over to Lambs’ auto-attacks, and the slow is no longer being applied. This would give much better synergy with Lamb and Wolf working together to hunt down their prey; rather than having Wolf guard a small area that Lamb must never leave. Also, keep the reduced cooldown mechanic for Dance of Arrows; it would make their ganking from jungle more reliable; because it would help Lamb catch up to their prey. I would also suggest that the reduced cooldown of Dance of Arrows be reduced further to 1.5 seconds; from the 2 seconds it currently is. Dance of Arrows right now seems rather underwhelming in damage, thus making it work better as a kiting mechanism; but it can only be activated on average 3 times in an active W, currently. Lowering it by the .5 seconds would make it much more reliable as a kiting mechanic, changing it to an average 5 times it could be used per active W, even if it stays lacking in damage. I would also suggest the idea of extending the range of her Q to the same range that Wolf would reach, but only during Wolf’s Frenzy. **-E: Mounting Dread** should be changed to a simple point and click ability; rather than the current targeted slow, and three auto-attack proc. Honestly the damage is solid, the slow is great, the range, mana, and cooldown all seem to be perfect; if it was all immediate. She has too small of auto-attack range, too slow of both natural attack speed and movement speed for this to actually be reliable; not only in a team fight, but in a one vs one skirmish. I’ve seen Kindred players die because instead of this ability being activated instantly, Lambs’ third auto-attack, as Wolf, has to fly at the enemy from wherever he is at the time; and he’s slow in doing it. If you turn Mounting Dread to just a targeted active, it would be more reliable as a source of damage rather than a waste of mana because Kindred couldn’t get catch up for that last auto-attack. Combining this with the change in the passive, from current health to missing health, this ability makes more sense with the max health part; and could lead to some nice turnarounds in their favor. -R: Lamb’s Respite is a bizarre new mechanic that seems really neat! As of currently, the problem with Kindred is with the reliable damage she can dish out from her other abilities; which as of now, is surprisingly little. I could explain much more behind my ideas behind this, but I’ll explain how this kit would work with the two most common builds right now. **Attack Speed Build** Kindred wouldn’t hit hard with this build, but they would whittle down their prey. As they find a straggler, Wolf would bite into them with **Mounting Dread**(E) while using **Wolf’s Frenzy**(W) to keep their prey from running for help, and using **Dance of Arrows**(Q) to evade any desperate swipes the dying prey may attempt, as **Kindreds’ Marks**(Passive) drain the enemy more and more of what little life remains in their prey; until deaths final embrace. When the light leaves the eyes of their target, Lamb swiftly leaps to find their next prey. **Attack Damage Build** Kindred would hit much harder in this build, but would be less nimble in mobility. They find an unwelcomed guest; an invader looking for an opportunity. Lamb jumps from the brush, but **Wolf’s Frenzy**(W) gets to the invader first. Wolf’s impressive strength makes it hard for the invader to find any good footing to run in any direction. Then Kindreds’ **Mounting Dread**(E) hit hard. The invader knew he made a mistake; he knew he had no other choice now than to run. He knew it was too late when a **Dance of Arrows**(Q) hit his back. His sight started to fade as he heard a sickeningly sweet laugh, coupled with a cackling growl. The invader proved to just be a small obstacle in Kindreds’ hunt for their real prey.
hey i love your ideas unlike many people you seem well thought out and incredible well done would you give me some feedback on my ideas for kindred maybe if everyone gets on board in 1 forum for a cohesive change something can be done. because i think i read alot of peoples ideas and summarized them well. see you on my form i hope :) http://boards.pbe.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/champions-gameplay-feedback/KQRLMxQh-kindred-2-champions-it-1-but-they-are-in-conflict
: I'm surprised that the champions that you chose for the ones that works with Kindred and struggles against were the ones that were there. I actually would say that the champions that are absolutely broken with Kindred are Karthus, Soraka, and Kalista. Kindred easily sets up Karthus with a moving Zhonyas. During this time, he is able to just hit everyone from full health to low health, and then when he finally does die, he can just ult and skittles right after Lamb's Respite is over. Karthus can also greatly enable Kindred by zoning enemies from entering the backline to get them. Soraka is outright broken by the same exact concept, she can heal and heal without ever having to worry about her health, and then right after Lamb's Respite ends, her allies are almost guaranteed to have more health due to her ult. Her peel and silence are also invaluable after the ult ends, and even when Kindred is alone and caught out, Soraka's passive allows her to get to Kindred quickly while Kindred is still in Lamb's Respite. Kalista can just delay her rend ability until Lamb's Respite is over, inflicting all the stacks on her enemies during the ult. And she can also bring her trusty support with her, with fear they won't die quite yet, to hold enemies in place while she pummels them with spears. Morgana would be a great choice in this case, with her delayed damage and crowd control. Gragas is good with and against Kindred, but he's more unreliable as an ally, I feel like Gragas should've been put in the struggles against section. Lee Sin (a good one) I agree can shut down a Kindred well. And Alistar has to be a counter. There's no way an 70% reduction of damage on this monster coming at you, stunning you and knocking you out of your own ult can be considered as fair. That's just downright rude. Also some thoughts on her skill set: Their Q is a little unreliable. It crushed my hopes some games where I couldn't trade with the enemy mid laner because i would have to jump into minions... and my Q would hit the minions instead of the champion. It's crazy that this jump by itself isn't an auto attack reset, but having the damage be unreliable in situations such as these are depressing. Vayne's Tumble exceeds this ability tenfold, being an auto attack reset, and having reliable damage. I understand that the main point of this ability is waveclear, but when I'm chasing a champion, I don't want to hit three raptors on the way. I'm proposing to have this ability target champions first, if this was the only change you made, I would be quite happy. AD scalings are horrendous. I'm pretty sure someone said this before, but I'll repeat it. It does not feel good buying an AD item. Bork I would consider buying. But other than on-hit builds that include Triforce and Devourer, their damage as a whole just seem weak. Their highest AD scaling is 40% right now. Even for a champ that does good sustained damage, Kindred is weak, especially during late game, where it feels like all this hunting isn't actually improving his damage. If you want to stick with the on-hit builds, I'd say make the Q act the same as his autos (without other on-hit effects except for his passive), so that his passive can scale with the the Q. Other suggestions would be to just increase their AD ratios a tiny bit. Other than that, Kindred is a blast to play, and I really mean it. The overall aesthetic reminds me of Hayao Miyazaki movies... like you got direct inspiration from several sources. Dha Ma, Princess Mononoke, Jekyll and Hyde, some really good lamb stew your co worker made, whatever the inspiration was, the product is amazing. Yum. Lamb stew.
love this but it makes me think that kindred is like a suport lol. anyway the only other thing is dont forget jana that is probably the best ult interation yet after the kindred ult ends heal all ur team and disengage.
: **_Things in Bold are main points_** I see a lot of praise for this champion, which is awesome Kindred is a really cool champion inside and out but to be honest they seem lackluster, they have advertly complex skills that seem like they have too much going on so nothing can be significantly strong, and their kit seems to deny themselves more thany anyone. She has good potiental but she just isnt that enjoyable to play because it doesnt seem like there is a cohesive play style. She has high risk gameplay that can be easily punished with very little return and she doesnt seem to have to ability to out manuveur anyone. Definately **buff the Movement speed**, most junglers have some sort of ms buff or can at least move fairly quickly on top of their mobility skills, and then they still have tankiness and cc to be strong. Kindred is lacking in a few too many areas, low MS, low defense, low cc, decent mobility skills, decent damage, decent sustain. While most junglers have only 1 or 2 low stat and at least 1 really high stat **Passive-** (**Pretty solid**) it's a little weird Ill give it that, it could use some UI tweaks to track cds and when a champion is marked but Im happy with how the champion marking works. As for wolf Im unsure, I like that its not easier to stack on wolf or lambs marks but Im still learning it, of course putting the tool tip in there saying how many stacks of wolf camps she can hunt would be helpful, I suggest maybe allowing that number to increase as her level increases so she can still rely on a little bit of power if she is behind in later game and not just have a fun mechanic suddenly stop. **Also why is it 1.25% current hp? could that be rounded to a nicer number?** **Q-** (**Clunky**) First of all Id like to say that I really like the concept and asthetic of the Q, a mobility attack is always fun on an adc, but It still feels clunky, I feel the animation is way to long and it drastically lowers their dps later on which makes them quite boring, its better to just stand and AA ** I recommend making lambs arrows fly while while in the middle of the leap and then also immediately reseting her AA when she lands** ** Also make the arrows target the last target you attacked if they are in range and 2 targets around them** , I realizes this makes the skill a little less of a risk when preforming but it brings more clarity to the champion imo. its been said before but **Please Let Dance of Arrows Apply On Hit Effects** **W-** (**Counter intuitive/Cloudy on functionality**) Wolf is supposed to chase his prey but he gets leashed to a fixed zone, I feel that the targeting for wolfs zone could be changed somehow, either **make his zone move around Lamb or around the first target he attacks**, this could help Kindred actually be decent at chasing, also I recommend **making wolfs first bite a more powerful one and applying grevious wounds or a slow or something**, so it gives more feedback when activating the ability. **E**- (**Little Clunky**) again this skill lowers dps and at later levels the damage and slow isnt really worth it, I recomend** instant cast time when activating the skill**. also the third attack is a much slower AA when wolf attacks, so I would recommend** the third attack should have wolf and lamb attack at the same time so that lamb can start her next AA animation while Wolf his finishing his bite animation**. Later in the game wolfs bite can easily be shrugged off especially with any armor and the %max hp damage is unnessicary what if you **made wolf deal a flat true damage with a ratio**, this is more effecitive against juggernaughts anyways. **R**- (**Not fun**) this is just subject to my oppion and I honestly believe this is one of the best balanced skills they have, but to me its not fun, Kindred have no hard cc, they have no way of getting grevious wounds (except ignite and that would mean no {{summoner:4}} {{summoner:11}} ), and their burst isnt enough to take out the enemies healed by her ult. Her ult is very strong in negating high cd high burst champions but tbh most those champions have been pushed out of the game, most assasins have decently low cds and with the length of the invunerability their skills will be back up, and fighters will have their damage AND cc back up to kill kindred after the ult, not to mention if they get ignited it litterally has help the enemies far more than it did kindred. Its really easy to take advantage of their ult as the enemy and even still its just a boring lul in a teamfight where nothing you do matters nearly as much, might as well just wait it out since kindred damage on you will just be healed back anyways.
hey i love your ideas unlike many people you seem well thought out and incredible well done would you give me some feedback on my ideas for kindred maybe if everyone gets on board in 1 forum for a cohesive change something can be done. because i think i read alot of peoples ideas and summarized them well. hope to talk to you soon :) http://boards.pbe.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/champions-gameplay-feedback/KQRLMxQh-kindred-2-champions-it-1-but-they-are-in-conflict
: DISCLAIMER: Instead of playing the normal Jungle Kindred, I decided to take them mid with an ADC build. The build went as follows; Blade of the Ruined King, Trinity Force, Runaan's, Infinity Edge, BloodThirster and Berserker Greaves. This is not taking into consideration player skill; this is purely based on how Kindred as a champion works in a lane. **My initial thoughts on Kindred in-lane (Ignore this if you want, just based on my first experience):** As with most junglers put into a lane, the levels 1-6 are rather terrible, naturally. You can get off some great poke on an unsuspecting mid laner with their E, however, it is easily countered by the fact that Kindred have low movement speed so you cannot easily chase them down to finish the stacks. The Q makes for easy farming, though is underwhelming when fighting against the enemy laner. The attack range and attack speed are on a nice ratio; high-ish attack speed and low-ish attack range, which balances out their trading ability nicely. W is barely useful at early levels, as it is easy to get greedy with using your Q to push. Levels 6 through 11 are a completely different story. Your chance of dying is massively reduced due to the ultimate; you also have your Q to dodge skillshots laterally, and your E has a spike in usefulness against melee champions in skirmishes. The pick potential is great with their E, so roaming is a must. Assuming you have Blade of the Ruined King at this point, you will very clearly notice your ability to fight is massively improved. However, it is important to take into consideration that most ADCs and supports/mages out-range and out-burst Kindred, so you must play them like you would play the average ADC; safely kiting around the back. After the fun mid-game, you fall off _heavily_ late game. ADCs begin to have high levels of sustain and critical chance, mages have lower cooldowns and tanks become difficult to finish off. Not all is lost, as you still have your ultimate which is an incredibly powerful tool for keeping your team alive, which in turn makes it hard for your enemies to burst you down if you are prepared. At full build, you will still have a great amount of damage, being able to proc Trinity Force with your W + Q and kiting with the Phage part of it and Blade of the Ruined King, but you are simply outclassed by many others. Overall, I would not recommend this champion outside of top and jungle. The outplay potential is there for the ADC and mid roles, but outside of that, Kindred just does not scale like most champions do in those roles. In fact, I'd go as far as to say that Kindred is underpowered. **Changes I would make:** Passive - Mark of the Kindred 1. _Bonus damage should be changed to 1% per Hunted monster kill, and 2% per champion, capped at 15%. It does not feel as rewarding as it should be, as a passive that is built around rewarding good picks, roaming and ganking. To counteract armour pen stacking, it could be dealt as magical damage, similar to how Darius' passive used to. _ 2. _Lower cooldown, from 4 minutes down to 3 minutes. Kindred does not feel like a tank/fighter, and should focus purely on getting those bonuses early._ Q - Dance of Arrows 1. _Damage up from 60/90/120/150/180 (+.2 total AD) to 70/105/140/175/210 (+.3 total AD). It doesn't feel like the damage does anything at all late game, even against squishies._ 2. _Another effect to it, as it seems boring. Perhaps Kindred gains bonus movement speed after every dash, stacking up to 3 times (+10/15/20/25/30 per jump, up to 30/45/60/75/90), which would improve their kiting ability significantly against late game tanks and fighters._ W - Wolf's Frenzy 1. _Health stolen should be relative to damage done since the last time it was proc'd; up from whatever it is now to 2/4/6/8/10% of damage done to minions and monsters since last time. As an example, clearing red camp (healing a flat 20 at first use, after taking the first hit of the camp) then attacking the next camp would mean Kindred heals and deals approximately 120 at level 1 or 2. This change would allow Kindred to stay in the jungle and lane for a while longer and being able to focus on stacking Mark of the Kindred. Relative to the Q change giving movement speed, it would make the player feel compelled to use their Q and W as a means of damage rather than just auto attacking, so that they don't just get a whole lot of low heals._ 2. _To help with the above change, the passive part stacks slower but can only proc when either Dance of Arrows hits an enemy minion or monster or if they are auto attacked. This would open up the option for enemies to get Kindred away from monsters and minions, similar to how Swain is more powerful when surrounded in a wave/in the jungle._ E - Mounting Dread 1. _Slow changed to 50/55/60/65/70% from 70% at all ranks. It is slightly overwhelming, but this change wouldn't remove it's utility. It just makes sure that Kindred's laning phase stays bad, but their ganks stay good. See below._ 2. _Slow duration changed to 2/1.75/1.5/1.25/1 second(s) from 1 second at all ranks. Works in tandem with the above change to keep jungle Kindred happy and laning Kindred balanced._ R - Lamb's Respite 1. _Cooldown lowered to 130/115/100 from 150/130/110. This is a great ultimate, a really great one. It's usefulness is out of this world, but should be used to help Kindred and his allies dive towers early to reassure those passive bonuses. Not huge, but those 20 seconds shaved off could save a life or two early._ ================================================================== The designers of this champion should really pat themselves on the back, Kindred brings something new to the table that is both fun and effective, being almost like a hybrid between Bard, Kalista and Vayne, but still keeping them from being overpowered. I'm especially looking forward to what pro players do with them.
hey i love your opinions unlike many people you seem well thought out and incredible well done would you give me some feedback on my ideas for kindred maybe if everyone gets on board in 1 forum for a cohesive change something can be done. so i hope i hear from you soon on my thread :) http://boards.pbe.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/champions-gameplay-feedback/KQRLMxQh-kindred-2-champions-it-1-but-they-are-in-conflict
: I agree with everything you said 100%, though I think making all of your suggested changes at once would make them WAY too OP. The most important changes to me are to her Q and E. Making Q not interrupt Auto Attacks will make a huge difference in allowing her to stay mobile in the late game, and it will also help during her first clear when accidentally hitting Q right before an attack fires can KILL your DPS. The early game part is more helpful for players trying her out for the first time who might not notice the difference, and for people running Runes without attack speed; my first try with her I took AD marks and quints, and her base attack speed lines up with the 2 second Q cooldown exactly the worst way, while taking AS marks and quints lined up pretty much the best way. I don't really feel as much of a problem with the range itself, but an indicator for what that range is would be nice. Her E also needs some work, more in the animations than anything else but I think the other suggested changes would be beneficial. The animation for the initial cast isn't too bad, though I feel like it sometimes doesn't go off. The animation for the third hit on the other hand, is just terrible. It doesn't scale with attack speed properly, so you'll be auto attacking normally but then that third auto attack will take a lot longer to go off and throw off your kiting. This is really the biggest issue in terms of consistency, auto attacks which take longer than expected are extremely terrible for feel and balance. Just those two I think would be enough to make me "satisfied", though I'd rather there be a few more changes and sacrifice in other areas for any added power. First, her move speed. 325 is common for Marksmen, but higher is definitely not unheard of even in mobile ones like Lucian. For junglers though... The only two champions who are even close to viable for jungle with 325 MS are Nautilus and Gnar, and Gnar doesn't even count since he gets bonus MS in his mini form, while Nautilus was considered basically a bottom-tier jungler until recent buffs simply because he was even worse everywhere else, and these days is much better in Top or Support. While I think 350 is a bit too much to ask, a bump up to 330 or 335 at least is pretty much essential. Second, her AD. I don't have the specific numbers, but when I checked at level 18 her base AD was 80. For comparison, the lowest AD at 18 of any other champion is 84 on ORIANNA who has that because she gains bonus magic damage on her auto attacks, with the next two being Thresh and Lulu who also have significant bonus damage on-hit as part of their kits. I recognize that Kindred also has a ton of on-hit damage from her passive, but she doesn't get that unless she has successful counterjungling or ganks despite being massively telegraphed, and it really limits her from building Triforce effectively when it would otherwise be great on her. I think that all the above changes could be made without making Kindred overpowered. If she's not overpowered then I think that raising their ult's cooldown would be good to allow for more of the changes FancyPantsMan suggested. If she IS overpowered then I think the same thing works, raise her ult's cooldown. Another place I think power could be taken away would be to change her passive to be 1% per mark rather than 1.25%. It's a significant nerf, but it also benefits clarity since you can just look at your stack number and go "That's how much damage I'll do". One thing that I personally think seems like it would be SUPER overpowered would be changing their passive so that attacks done by Wolf deal % current HP damage, while attacks by Lamb deal % missing HP damage. I think having those would make sense with each of their "parts", though it would require pretty huge restructuring of their kits to make the interaction interesting (might be worthwhile, since it would involve making Wolf a bigger part of her kit which would be good for her theme as well) and balance it out. Just changing it all to % missing HP would also be good; it shouldn't really change her DPS much, but it would synergize with her ult and I think it would benefit her ganks as well especially if she's ganking for a lane that's lower range or less mobile than her.
hey i love your opinions unlike many people you seem well thought out and incredible well done would you give me some feedback on my ideas for kindred maybe if everyone gets on board in 1 forum for a cohesive change something can be done. :) hope to here from you soon! http://boards.pbe.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/champions-gameplay-feedback/KQRLMxQh-kindred-2-champions-it-1-but-they-are-in-conflict
: Hey there. I must say, I'm disappointed. Once again, the PBE is proving to be a waste of time for everyone involved. Every time that a champion comes out either underpowered or overpowered, people ask why the champion wasn't better balanced on PBE. The response is always something along the line of **"The PBE is a bad place for us to gather balancing information."** That makes a lot of sense; matchmaking is bad, you end up playing the champion versus itself a lot, and people are still learning the champion and how to play against it on PBE. Instead, y'all mention how **the PBE is a good place to get people's opinions on how the champion makes them feel.** So what is up with today's changes? With all of the changes that _could_ be made, changes that would pull together the champion into one cohesive kit that feels good to play as and fulfills the proper fantasy, why are balance changes (particularly a balance change that literally no one asked for on this board; I've spent an inordinate amount of time reading the board since Kindred's announcement). You could have taken this chance to do something with the kit. Instead, it seems as if all you're hearing is that people are concerned that the champion is underpowered, so you're just randomly adding to the ball of stats. And adding to the ball of stats in this way is bad, because it eats up power budget that could be used in making the champion all put together. I would much rather play a squishy Kindred whose Q doesn't completely destroy their DPS than a Kindred who doesn't get as low in the jungle but still becomes just another short-range AA-all-day ADC with no synergy in their kit. I'd rather Kindred had at least gotten that buff in movement speed or base AD instead of HP and armor, because those are things that speak a lot more closely to the fantasy. Maybe disappointed is not the right word to use, though. I'm mostly concerned. You've made a champion who _could_ be something special. And you've gotten a lot of suggestions, at least from me, pointing out ways that would bring out that specialness. Ways that Kindred would work better at fulfilling the fantasy. And, instead of seeing changes that move toward that, we instead see tiny little tweaks to stats that homogenize the champion instead of adding power into places where it could both increase the champion's win rates and would also appeal to the fantasy. I've made lots of buff suggestions; **Q doesn't interrupt AAs** (straight DPS increase, because Q and AA can't be used at the same point right now; very necessary for the champion's feeling, because right now the champion has to end up being an AA spammer because that's the only reasonable way to build), **W can apply the first two stacks of E** (straight burst increase, because you need fewer AAs to apply the extra damage from the third W stack; needed because right now none of the abilities really feel like the two characters working together), **movement speed increased to 350** (straight buff for jungle clear speed and survivability because of better positioning; needed because the champion is supposed to be good at chasing, and right now is really bad at it), **more passive stacks from Wolf** (buff to number of stacks one can get; needed because right now there's no reason to go after Wolf's stacks because they're very dangerous and can be replaced with Lamb stacks). I've made suggestions that might be sideways shifts in power; **E's damage changed to be two attacks at once, from Lamb and Wolf at the same time, applying on-hit twice instead of 5% max HP damage** (maybe a buff with high passive stacks or lots of AD; needed because once again Wolf and Lamb don't feel like they work together), or **changing the passive damage to be missing HP** (can't claim this one as my own, but it makes a lot more sense, as Kindred wants to finish people off, not just get them low and watch them run away; also would make the ult make more sense because Kindred would be good at finishing off the 10% HP people that are left over). But instead, **the buffs that we see today are completely unrelated to the champion's fantasy.** Yesterday's change (Passive CD from 90->65 seconds) was a good change; but today it feels almost as if you're done with the champion and just putting on the final small balance touches. It feels like now you probably think that the champion is in a good place balance wise, so making any of the changes that would shift around or increase the champions power while improving the fantasy would make the champion overpowered, and therefore can't be done. So it really seems like those changes are off of the table, and I'm greatly saddened. I'm not sure if you understand, but **Kindred does not fulfill the fantasy that they are supposed to.** Kindred is supposed to be two characters working together as one, in their own ways, to hunt down and destroy people. Lamb is supposed to jump around in fights to spread out some beautiful mobile damage. Right now, none of that happens. Wolf feels boring and lazy (literally, he feels lazy, because he does so little), and E makes Lamb stand around like a derp every third AA for no reason. The two don't feel like they're working together. And dashing about with Q in battle is a very bad idea right now in every way (short attack range, two-second CD on your only escape, huge drop in DPS). What you've made, from this amazing possibility space, is a short-ranged, ineffective ADC with a support ult. No one's going to play that. If it's not overpowered, a 500-range ADC who doesn't really speak to a fantasy isn't going to see play. And instead of enticing people with a fantasy, it looks like you're more inclined to just throw stats at the champion to make them overpowered until people play them. Please actually respond. **One of the hardest parts of making suggestions on the PBE is that the feedback loop is really bad. I only think all of this because the only things that I have to go on are the changes that get pushed to PBE.** And the changes that I've seen make me really feel like I'm just talking to a wall. Thanks, FancyKiddo
hey i love your opinions unlike many people you seem well thought out and incredible well done would you give me some feedback on my ideas for kindred maybe if everyone gets on board in 1 forum for a cohesive change something can be done http://boards.pbe.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/champions-gameplay-feedback/KQRLMxQh-kindred-2-champions-it-1-but-they-are-in-conflict
: Kindred Official Feedback Thread
i would love to know if you mean this champion to be a late game carry marksman or a snowballing assassin. because i made a thread about champion identity and some ideas for changes i would love to have your opinion on. http://boards.pbe.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/champions-gameplay-feedback/KQRLMxQh-kindred-2-champions-it-1-but-they-are-in-conflict
Rioter Comments
: Hmmm, yeah; missing %HP would make considerably more sense. Good suggestion.
yah i agree with this a hunter is supposed to chase and finish off an opponent i would love this champ to be changed more to fit that theme.
: customs are still failing to load.....
seems fixed as of 8:30 i finally had a successfull atempt
: The issue should be resolved! Happy PBEing and sorry about the drama!
customs are still failing to load.....
: I think steraks should really give 50% base damage and another 50% when enraged, its just straight up weak right now.{{champion:32}}
a think it does need a buff and to back this up i have some numbers. best case senareo and you get this item when it is at its mist gold efficient which mean its built on gnar wile in megga gnar it gives u a tinny 36 AD and in the worst case synareo it can give you a tiny 10 ad now lets asume your building on a tri force champ because sheen aplies this buff. lets use gp at lv 18 he has 107 ad meaning he gains 26 ad from this item when the tri force procs this it means you get 78 bonus damage to your q that is rather low considering i can buy a flat 80 ad item and get more damage overall not just situationaly from it. that being said i think 50% is to much that would be 53 ad and 159 on a trinity proc that is a bit much so i think a smaller buf is in order but it is definitely needed i think
: In practice it won't generate that much attack damage because there won't be anything to hit. As the item grants more attack damage, it becomes harder and harder to hit anything 5 times without killing it, so you run out of things to trigger the active on.
look the truth is that this item is like a devouror in the lane. is it going to get to live NO so just laght and enjoy it. is it OP in the late game yes. but it is exploitable early for instance if you can buy a BF on first back use its much better power and some outplays to get a kill and or zone them off the minions then they will be able to stack less and will fall farther and farther behind. so its not totaly broken but not ballenced either it is a fun weird item for a featured game mode just go with it
: * If your spells are off CD, then starting your combo at 3 stacks is always better than 4 stacks. * Before level 6, you can do QEQWQEQ (and in a couple secs, EQ) * Each spell takes .25s to cast in addition to some extra time in between spellcasts. I made a macro to test the absolute maximum amount of spells Ryze can cast during his passive time, and it turned out to be 11 spells only. Interestingly, 3.75 / 11 = .34, which is approximately the time to cast a spell (.25s) plus my ping (.09s), so does ping affect Ryze's DPS, or is it just a coincidence?
i dont know about the ping that is an interesting idea. and implies pros will have an even better time with him in real matches thanks for the pre 6 combo i love that idea! most of all thanks for the macro bind. 11 is still huge and at max ult rank means it will be off CD by end of combo which is insane! and is still enough for 2 MAYBE 3 binds if you include the moments right after the passive is over.
Rioter Comments
: Cooldown for team ults is something we're looking into for future release.
are you looking into the transparency HUD idea above as well i feel this is great cant say how often i see someone recalling and they get killed wile looking at their items or other HUD info
: I really hope you read this, but i suggest adding an actual timer to ult CD's, having to ask each teammate how long left for their ults is a waste of time that some games can't allow, make ult timers into numbers going down like a clock, they don't have to be 100% accurate, also, CD timers for your teammates' summoners, this information exists in the game but isn't utilized.
yes riot pls do this and same for summoner spells of your teammates.
: I have played only one game with him but I already a few comments. About his Q, I think the coldown should start only when he got the device back. Otherwise it will be a really annoying poke to his oppenents. About his ult, I think the ap ratio should be low. Sometimes it's just better to use his ult to enjoy the damage it makes, and I belive that's not the main point of his ult. And the ap ratio of his Q and W are really low, his power should be on his Q and W, not on his ult and passive. The stun of his H is way too long.
i think that his ult damage should be nerfed but i think that his QW are fine actually if anything i think he is a bit to pokey right now for an assassin i don't want another mage i want him to have good base damage on his poke but low scaling then i would increase the AP ratio and decrease the base damage on his E i think that with the AP on his 2 pasives for auto attack he sould be less able to poke and rather be rewarded for going in.
: Is his E meant to do extra damage to structures? Get a lichbane and you can knock out like an 8th of turret's health in one attack.
his E is an execute i would assume it does not if it does a tower execute is WAY to OP and it should be fixed his passive shouldnt either however i still think lish bane early wile playing in the top lane with TP and getting your splitpush on is awesome
: There are people comparing Ekko to Diana, and although I can say that their playstyles are very different from each other, I can say that they seem similar because of the similarity in items you have to buy. When I think Diana, I think Lich Bane, Nashor's, ROA, Deathcap, Zhonyas, and Sorcs. When I think of Ekko, I think of... about the same thing. Now I'm not hating on Riot for the similarities, I'm just saying that when a new champion be made, thought should also be put in the item diversity as well. Although Diana and Ekko have different playstyles, the AP scalings and AA based passives built the way they both deal damage, promoting similar item builds in the process. Personally, I would love to see Ekko's passive and his E with some AD scaling at the cost of some AP scalings. This would promote different playstyles to be viable. I remember a post where Riot thought Blue Ezreal promoted different playstyles in a positive manner. I would like to see that on different champions as well, and I believe Ekko could be another example of that. "Blade Ekko", which consists of a BORK, Hextech, Rageblade, Youmuu, TriForce, and Berserker Greaves, (although a farfetched build) might be one example of a different playstyle, and something like this is what I hope for. Well I love Ekko and I thoroughly believe that his kit is pure genius, I feel smart just looking at his abilities... someone give gypsylord a medal. I'm done rambling.
like like and more like i think that right now he does feel like diana i also feel that there still are not many (if any) viable hybrid champions. there are champions that can be played with either or but not both. what i would love to see is make ekko a viable hybrid champion by making clear power spike opportunities for both AD and AP so what i would love to see is changing his QWE to all scale with AD to a degree that in the early game building tri force/AD is good in the early game. then build pure AP mid to late to make his passive and passive W shine. to make him not to overpowered i would make his base damage on the passives lower so that until late game when he gets that AP they will not be as meaningful. in this situation an AD ekko would have a decent early game but in order to have a good splitpush game they would need to either build tri force OR more AD both or witch sacrifice the late game damage of full AP with a lich bane that is so scary now. or they could build full AP at the cost of a weak early game. this would for once make a hybrid build with a tri force BotRK and AP ideal. so possible hybrid ekko game would be like this. either build cutlass first for lane strength and delay the tri force power spike or have a weaker lane and rush tri force. in mid game with tri force and BotRK splitpush wile i would recomend having TP to join your team for team fights if needed. then late game be an actual risk assassin with sorc boots ZH, DC, and hextec. anyway just an idea
: Okay, just got my first taste of Ekko in a bot game. So far i can tell you his passive needs a nerf, he has ways of procing it twice, maybe even three times in a combo, it does wayyy too much damage for the utility he has. Besides the over the top damage on his passive, he is sooo cool. His ult mechanic is really amazing, congrats on that one. I also like how his dash can go through and back in terrain. He has so many different ways to use his kit, ill be playing him for days trying to learn exactly how he can be used effectively. All in all, 8/10 in champ rating. Only problem i see is his passive just doing way too much.
just out of curiosity do you mean his passive or his E passive? both together or did it just feel like to much?
: I'm not sure that it's intended, but its probably worth noting that Chronobreak can be used immediately after recalling back to base and it will instantly warp him back to lane. The 4 second delay leaves more than enough time to buy items and restore most of his missing health and mana, and if you throw in homeguard it even gives him the speed boost when he gets back to lane. It probably interacts in the same way with Teleport, but I haven't had a chance to try that one yet. I can only imagine how annoying it would be to play against someone doing that.
on the post i saw it mentioned that his ult has a range cap but i have not tested this to confirm however the range cap should definitely be there.
: Yes, seriously why does he have to be AP ? When I saw his kit it seemed cool until I actually saw he scaled with AP. That's totally misleading, why an assassin would take risks to go and auto attack to proc this passive. He have to build as a mage to deal damage. I wouldn't mind his ratio being AD. Or maybe allowing him to play both ? Because nodody want's to dash in if he is a "Damage Over Time" assassin. Diana can do the same job, without having to wait to kill someone.
I think that it is good to have the variety of a melee AP assassin its like an AP Zed and it offers different pros and cons. first of ekko's damage is quite bursty if ahead and just late game in general. also that Execute is MASIVE! and unlike zed's his can be used OVER AND OVER till dead if thats not enough reward for going in i dont know what is. the most prominent difference in having it be an AP assassin is that now ekko is definitively focused on either being a late game carry or on snowballing ahead. as opposed to zed who wile still able to snowball is more mid game focused and is splitpush focused.
: Can you make it so his ghost actually **dashes** and **recalls**? See here for a vid of my suggestion: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8P-PBaKzkdg
I definitly agree this would be a great quality of life change. same thing should be done with flash. and with enemy champion displacements my question is this riot. it looks like right now its just a image set to follow him on a 4 second delay why not have it make a simple recording of what the champion is doing that plays back on a 4 second delay so it would show all of these things. (with the posible exception of his own spell animations that are not the dash)
: Currently, the buff duration on Q is intentionally low so that it will fall off between waves. The payout on cashing in 5 stacks gets to be pretty high because she can't just have it up whenever she wants it.
ok thanks any thoughts on the rest?
: Flurry should definitely be higher damage. If it's not, I'd love to see a video of that being the case...
maybe a quality of life change on her q tooltip could indicate damage when criting? also i think that if MIGHT be more satisfying to see the damage of each volley pop up as 1 number when the multiple arrows hit? im not sure on that one but it could be worth looking into.
: I really appreiciate that ashe gets some love, but there are some questions... Why did she keep not only keep the peraslow but even got a huge buff on it?(passive with no manacosts, 20%more slow duering Q) When scarner was reworked, one of the main reasons apparently was that permaslow is toxic, so why was the little scorpion gutted for having a permaslow which needed to built up and get in meleerange, stay in meleerange and spend mana, while it's ok in a 600range hyper dps champ to have a no cost permaslow that can even be applied by a spamable 1200range aoe skill... Why does her crit passive only work vs slowed enemies? it makes cc/slow imune champs hardcounters to her, and as far as i remember your design guidlines, hardcounters in champselect are a no-go... Also, why does ashe recive such an massive hyperscaleing while offering even more utillity than befor?!? Her dps is above Jinx lvls with the 10%crit from passive, 60%as buff while still haveing a really high base as at lvl 18 and a 35%ad buff on top. I haven't played an champ that was remotely as proken as her current rework, and i was around for release Xin. I really like that flattend crit testrun on her passive(atleast i hope it'S a testrun for an eventuall crit overhaul), and i like the Q idea aswell as the E buff, but her numbers are massivly over the top, and her permaslow never should have been thing, seeing that it was one of the cuases for mobillity creep...
given she has no mobility herself i don't think that the slow is a problem especially given she is a squishy on a tank its a problem. on the squishy they can still gap close and murder your face. her hyperscaling is huge. but actualy dont forget that jinx holds a similar identity adding multiple CCs and with her rockets bonus damage and AOE damage. and her minigun attack speed buff i think they both offer a lot of utility and are hyper-caries. also i think that this rework has offered multiple counter-able weaknesses to make up for the strengths. like weak early game. no mobility of any kind. weakening volley and so on.
: > [{quoted}](name=RiotRepertoir,realm=PBE,application-id=2EAF660193FA3B668D7234B3AEBB530C5AB7F651,discussion-id=6BBcWPLy,comment-id=00200000,timestamp=2015-04-29T18:03:26.468+0000) > > Sorry that Volley feels bad, but it is somewhat intended that it's not as much just free damage as it used to be. I'd encourage you to try and change your positioning or cast timings to make it work. I don't agree with calling it "free damage" because it costs mana and is barely worth the cost since it does pretty weak damage. But pre-update it had enough worthwhile use cases that it is a really satisfying skill. Now it's the opposite. It rarely feels good to use. I think you should think of Volley as more of an AoE ability with poke qualities, rather than a poke that you'd compare to most of the pokes in the game. The difference is when Ezreal is landing a lot of Qs on champions, those champions get pretty messed up since his Q does more damage than Volley and applies on-hits. Same with most skills that are more dodgeable and do more damage. Volley is weaker but can hit more units and it feels good despite being weak because you can AoE stuff. But you're making it really hard to do that, now you have to carefully choose your positioning and stuff. I don't think that's appropriate considering that most AoE abilities aren't so demanding on the player.
i think that until we see how she fares on live the volley is fine myself. i have always loved ashe and i think that the volley being thinner is also good because it means that positioning and timing is needed to use it effectively not just for itself but also in order to gain focus rapidly with good positioning. like most of this update i think it adds in game strategic positioning and play to manage your focus and other abilities well. my one wish is that it had a bit more utility than just the same slow the rest of her kit has. for instance maybe its slow is a little stronger or maybe to compensate for the lack of damage when multiple arrows are blocked the slow will increase when multiple arrows hit 1 target. just some ideas.
: Passive is just a slow added to her attacks. The first Q missile will apply on-hits like BotRK; the next 4 on the attack won't. Runaan's fires 2 bolts for every single attack during a Focus-empowered Q. It feels pretty cool.
is life steel only on the first q missile as well then? i both hope yes and no because i love ash and want her to be awesome but without looking at the numbers i'm not sure if it would be to OP.
: Ashe Update Feedback Thread
so after playing the new ash and reading allot of the comments and doing some math here are my thoughts general- this change definitively solidifies ash into a utility ADC but it also adds a late game hyper-carry viability that i think was missing before. i think that the rushed items have to be IE and PD and then the remaining core is RH (and CD boots because the Q has a long CD and needs to be up as much as posible and there are not any really good CD items for ADC) but RH does not need to be 3rd item. RH i think is def core because of the synergy with building focus stacks because in a team fight or if minions are around u can now have 5 stacks in 2 atks. 1 atk if u use your W. meaning that the Q can be almost instantly used to its full potential. also the utility brought by slowing 3 enemies at a time is amazing. and finally once you move on from your initial target to another target chances are with RH that enemy likely already has the slow applied so you will get your crit right of the bat no delay. her focused Q will be an amazing tower killing steroid which is what gives her the late game potential. and to anyone claiming no burst on ash i can only say that the focused Q is amazing burst and if you are careful in your lane positioning and trade timing combined with ashes above average range and slow you can still lane with no worse weaknesses than any other immobile hyper carry. recommended changes: stacks- i would say that the time on the stacks should be long enough for them to last the time for 1 wave to be replaced by the other alowing you to keep stacks up OR (not both) make the stacks fall of one at a time. my reason for this is that in order to maintain your stacks you will have to AA often enough that you will probably push the wave and i think that this is a large enough weakness that if you are going to risk pushing then you should be rewarded for it. also i found that with the short time the enemy can just run from the ash when the focus is up at no real cost to them for the amount of time it is available it should at least be enough time to deny some CS hawkshot- * i would love to have a very small mini map icon indicating the hawkshots location for clarity. * i do not think it should grant assists because it is global. * I think that the reward for ranking it should not be CD i think that with stacks it is def up as often as needed. rather i like the ideas someone else gave of it adding as SMALL! MS buff for the first X distance of it for all allied champs going in the direction of the shot. i think this enhances her utility identity and makes hawkshot crystal arrow an even more viable long range engage. (if this idea is used assist should be given for the MS buff because that would NOT be global) side note: i think this could make ash a viable top lane bruiser because when using the core i said above you can finish with the new cleaver and a frozen mallet for a decent build. summary: i think the changes are great and would love to have your thoughts on the viability of my change ideas and also would love to know if more changes are still likely or if there are probably only going to be a few tweaks to the numbers involved. edit: as for the focus stacks if the enemy can see the animation showing the stacks are up i would like to ask that it ONLY show when at 5 stacks NOT wen u are at 5 stacks and your Q is off CD other things of the like don't show when a skill is available just the stacks. and i think that telling the enemy when BOTH are available is to strong an indicator for them. thank you for the awesome new champ changes i look forward to your response have an awesome day!
: How does adding a slight movement speed bonus if moving towards Hawkshot sound? feel free to nerf around, i just feel that it will be really cool if it left like an "ice" floor that increases movement speed?? giving her some escape potential which is what pretty much all (current meta) adc's have.
this should definitely be explores and it is not even contradictory to her utility ADC identity because if u made it a small MS boost that applied to your team as well that scaled with points being maxed last would prevent it being to good wile still adding a cool team utility only one thing. because of the fact that it is global the MS steroid would have to be a limited part of the distance near ash (no globally giving MS to your team)
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1ncite

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