A comprehensive response to the upcoming Garen rework and a list of concerns

if you dont know what im talking about, you can find the planned upcoming rework here in this tweet by Riot Scruffy https://imgur.com/a/RXOdG9P ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- hello. im a garen main practically since season 1 and i have probably thousands of games on the champion. since the tweet about the rework a couple of days ago, i already had some time to let them sink in. while theyre promising, they also create a couple of concerns and questions. i know this might seem premature as most of the tweeted changes are highly experimental, and only proof of concept at this stage, but i just want to open this discussion as soon as possible to make sure that we dont get another villainy situation, where new mechanics are implemented into his kit that sound great, but turn out with such negative downsides that they end up being disliked by garen mains and opponents alike. 1. will ninja tabi and bramble vest affect the new 25% damage increase + on-hit component? as to my knowledge, currently every ability that is capable of proccing on-hits in leage of legends has to be coded as a basic attack. will garens spin be an exception or follow the same rules? 2. what happens when garen is attack speed slowed? is it possible for the number of spins to fall below 8 due to his new attack speed scaling, and for as slows like cold steel passives and frozen heart to affect us even when we dont opt into the attack speed route? 3. while i welcome the new attack speed synergy, i also have concerns that compared to live values, garens is nerfed across the board if we dont opt into an attack speed build and on-hit item. the damage on his spin on a black cleaver, steraks gage, dead mans plate build is close to the same with the attack speed shard, with huge nerfs to his w and 8% lower isolation damage. this means his classic builds will just leave him an overall noticably weaker champion. 4. since garens kit doesnt change overall, his w remains the largest form of skill expression in his kit. i feel like reverting the passive armor bonus AND the cooldown scaling hits the ability way too hard. garen is currently a champion who enjoys an unusual large variety of different build options and item pathes. this is a major point of fun and mastery to the champion. i feel these initial changes that youre proposing not only add a new build route to garen, but emphasize it to the point where he will be significantly weaker without an attack speed item like trinity force and/or blade of the ruined king in his inventory. this creates a too clear optimal build path for him, that in the end kills his item and build diversity for garen as a whole (conqueror, trinity force/blade of the ruined king becomes must buy/core on garen and were pidgeonholed into one specific builld). at the same time, garens current w is the backbone of most of his item builds and playstiles. no matter if youre going AD garen, tank garen, roaming triforce/ad garen. all these builds are mainly supported by the large amount of base defenses that his w provides at later stages of the game. **the only requirement that garen currently has, is: build health**. everything else is usually open and variable. this is thanks to his w. 5. due to the new on-hit mechanic on the spin, we garen mains lose a major portion of control over the on-hit effects that were already building. when buying sheen/triforce the procs will now get immediately absorbed by nearby lane minions for 50% upon activating the spin. we also lose control over dead mans plates passive. it wiill not be possible anymore to move into a sidelane, and use the spin to clear a minion wave while preserving the movement speed bonus of dead mans plate. this severely impacts our ability to split push and our macro play. it might not seem like a big downside, but its a huge negative. we garen mains will also not be able to open a fight with our spin anymore to prepare grasp of the undying, and sheen and cancel the spin early to lead into an empowered auto attack into our ultimate for a much sooner execution that our opponents might expect, as the effects get immediately triggered during the spin for only 50% strength so the new mechanic removes a bit of micro play that we developed. 6. a small nitpick concerning his new attack speed scaling. garen gains one additional spin for every 12.5% bonus attack speed. his base attack speed scaling per level ends him up at 47.3%, which means hes 0.7% off his next spin at lvl 18. the attack speed shard also grants 12%, which puts garen off 0.5% from another spin. its unlikely that it would break the champion if he gained 1.2% bonus attack speed at level 18 to throw us a bone and get the threshold for the extra 2 spins at that point. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- with all this in mind, i have already compiled a list of potential tweaks to the new kit that youre giving him #courage: - **[buffed]**: cooldown per rank tuned back to 23 / 21 / 19 / 17 / 15 seconds (live value) garens w active remains one of the largest factors of skill expression in his kit. the double nerf is too much. excess power moved from the armor shred of his spin. with the availability of conqueror and on-hits, the extra 17% armor shred seems uneccessary over the options of black cleaver, conqueror and last whisper items. #judgement: - **[removed]:** judgement no longer shreds enemy armor. - **[removed]:** garens base attack speed scaling no longer factors into his bonus spins (all other sources of bonus attack speed still apply and add extra spins to his e) - **[changed]:** base number of spins 5 + 1 spin per rank of judgement (up to 10 at rank 5) - **[added]:** attack speed slows can not reduce number of spins below judgements base value (6 to 10 dependent on rank) - **[buffed]:** increased ad scaling on judgement back to live value to not sacrifice his non as build routes for the as scaling the point of the last 4 changes is obviously to not affect his non attack speed build routes through the as scaling, and have his old build routes not nerfed for the addition of a new one. this is just proof of concept. whats important is the power shifted back into judgements ad scaling and not get garen affected by attack speed slows when he doesnt build attack speed items or runes. - **[removed]:** the 25% damage increase and on-hits dont trigger against lane minions anymore (only nearest enemy champions or monsters) this makes conqueror stacking more consistent, preserves dead mans movement speed when waveclearing with the spin, and doesnt randomly cost us our sheen procs when a minion walks too close to us when activating the spin. - [optional] strength of on-hits reduced to 33% the last part is in case there needs power to be cut in favour of buffing the ad scaling part of the spin back up. **tldr.: these tweaks are aimed at tuning power back out of the new on-hit attack speed route as to not sacrifice his current build pathes for the new playstile.** **generally what i think most of us garen mains appreciate is the addition of all the new build options that an attack speed/on hit scaling brings to our kit. however, it should not be emphasized to the point where it sacrifices his already existing playstiles, removes mastery from his kit, and might even become downright abusive.**
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