Zyra on PBE

Hey, I see what you are trying to do, but the approach of it isnt the correct way and contradicts changes prior to her. I don&#039;t see her as strong as she started to be a year and 6 months ago, but well since you want changes in that way, let me help you out and explain what you might want to do different. **When i saw on PBE unknown plant changes in spawnrate and HP i believed you are trying emphasize her as a midlaner while shifting away her power against 2 enemies. But, your changes kill the Champion itself.** Making Zyra's plants have 2/4/5/6 HP on level 1/6/11/16 is completely terrible. MF support became meta because her passive had that interaction, that one auto of her + one auto of her ADC twoshot the plants despite 4.4HP. Reducing the plant HP to 2 makes her plants get oneshot by whoever by a single auto/spell. They lose 2HP on autoattacks, 3 on AoE spells and 4 on singletarget ones. Her plants are not existant neither 1v1 nor 2v2. Zyra is already punished for not hitting Q. The plants wont focus any champion and are free 5 gold for the enemy without any tradeoff. Even if Zyra hits Q, the plant wont live long enough to do a second autoattack. It will only do one auto and you won&#039;t get a Thunderlords proc without your own autoattack. Does not make too much sense, when Zyra&#039;s entire rework was done to emphasize her as a plant mage and alot of her damage was shifted into her plants. You gave Zyra the ability to control them with her spells to make her more satisfying to play especially in lane, but this PBE Zyra is basically a way worse pre-6.9 iteration, which was already seen as "not worth to play". You need to go for that autoattack, but even then the plant will only get one auto off. The planthp scaling on W was very meaningless anyway and i do not understand why you went for that. But your nerfs and changes to the W cooldown (seeds 2 sec faster per skillpoint rather than 1 sec) made it an impactful skill to level at least. Her plants having 2 or 4.4hp is a difference of 2 (or MF/Lulu 1) autoattacks on them. The fact Zyras plants have 4HP at level 1 and die with 2 autos is already super odd and annoying to me, because she used to have 6HP (and well not any plants at all level 1). However, with your changes she will have 4HP until she hits level 11 and 2HP until level 6. Like in the entire laning phase the enemys onehit the plants. I read alot of "Zyra can be played as support because she has decent base damage on her abilities". This is so wrong. Zyra's base damage on every ability sucks hard alone. Its an entire rotation which make Zyra's spells strong, because so much of her damage comes from her plants. Every single ability of her is balanced around her having seeds available and plants doing their damage. A single Q of Zyra does as much damage if not less than a Braum Q. Zyra's R does slightly more than Braums. Braums passive does more damage than a plant. With Zyra's current numbers, killing the plants means killing the champ. I sat for some time and thought how we could make your changes work out and be healthy for both sides Zyraplayers and players facing her. What are your aims? I dont think she is an issue right now as she was at worlds or before. Her winrate in bronze-plat is 50-53%, above plat even <50%. There are 16 support champs with higher winrate right now. If it is to make her laning weaker try this: Gardem of Thorns - Spawn rate from 13-9.25 seconds to 17-12 / Plant HP from 4HP to 3HP W - could stay this way (passive no longer increases plant health by 10/20/30/40/50%, now increases spawn rate by 10/15/20/25/30%) R - Increases plant health by 50/75/100% instead of 100/150/200% Revert that the first plant auto always hits an enemy Champion, even if you fail to land Q. Plants dont give gold and count as CS anymore (easy to kill your plants, needs 20 seconds to charge, your passive 17-12 seconds) This version would make her at least playable and are close to your changes, while being still a big nerf to her laning and a slight nerf to her overall. I dont think it is a good experience for Zyraplayers though. I imagine this as a really unfun one. **If you are trying to remove her from botlane and make her a midlaner:** Gardem of Thorns - Spawn rate from 13-9.25 seconds to 16 (+1.125% for every 1% CDR) / Decrease spawnrange / Plants Plants have 2HP - AP-ratio from 0.15 -&gt; 0.2 Q - Manacosts changed from 70 to 65/70/75/80/85 W - Cooldown changed from 20/18/16/14/12 seconds to 20/18.5/17/15.5/14 seconds - passive no longer increases plant health, now gives CDR 2/4/6/8/10% - passive increases spawnrate by 0/5/10/15/20% R - Increases plant health by 100%/175%/250% Thronspitter and Vinelasher only reduce damage of same type of plants by 50% Plants dont give gold and count as CS anymore Zyra has a big issue currently. She has too much into levelscaling, which is not that much noticable (passive, plant damage) and post level 13 its basically only her ult at level 16 which gives her a small boost. She just gets access to more seeds after a certain point and has pure item scaling, when she already has her most important Item (Liandries). We shift around few things in Zyra&#039;s kit and we get this version. P - Her passive CD scales with Items and only lategame by her W. We increase her AP-ratio on her plants slightly, so it deals slightly more reliable damage, when they are so vulnerable. Plants have 2/4/5.5/7 HP at level 1/6/11/16. With less spawnrange you prevent completely useless seeds (which dont give meaningful vision 95% of the time anyway) Q - This version of Zyra has to put points into Q to waveclear, even when she wants to max E first, her plants get onehit by minions and enemies. Using W seeds for farming is too much of a tradeoff. 5 Mana less than current Zyra, to help her out early levels. The not stacking Thornspitters and Vinelashers are an interesting part. Even in high competitive games players tend to spawn 2 Vinelashers, because it gives you slightly better burst, since Q has a delay of 0.625 seconds, despite spawning a plant with superior range. Now with Zyra having so vulnerable plants and seeds, spawning 2 different types of plants should be rewarded to make up for the damage she would otherwise lack. She has less access to seeds, but when she has 2+, you better get rid of the sqishy plants. W - After some brainstorming i got to the point where i had to admit, that the passive CDR was actually really good pre-rework. It might to seem like just stats, but overall the small amount of CDR she gets late helps her to spawn those plants. Kinda like a symbiosis. With these changes we take alot of Zyra&#039;s early game into late game. Her power is more spread in her kit and less valueable as support (usually has 2-12% CDR, going for CDR items as support is actually a big tradeoff if you want to deal damage), while being more valueable as a midlaner. Her plants have 2HP early in this case which take alot of her zoning power in her support role. As i said before, im not sure what you are trying to accomplish. She does not need nerfs right now. There are plenty of other supports outshining her these patches especially {{item:3504}} abusers. If you want to remove her from botlane completely, well i have to accept that, but your approach is slightly wrong and is killing the champ itself with these numbers on PBE. My second suggestion of changes should be a better version of what you are trying to do then. Greetings, Shaian
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