[Preseason] Itemization Feedback Megathread (November 10th PBE Build)

This is a feedback piece that will try to address concerns on the whole item ecosystem based on personal assessment and feeback from other PBE players, but also nitpick some inconsistencies that would otherwise barely deserve their own thread. Warning: wall of text. There's a TL;DR at the bottom. Links to my other posts: * [Previous thread](http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/legw6gGR-preseason-itemization-feedback-megathread-november-2nd-pbe-build) * [Mastery calculator](http://pyroblasty.github.io/masteries/) * ["Riot pls" posts you may expect in the first few weeks of the preseason](http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/xPiEpbLz-as-a-pbe-player-let-me-tell-you-in-advance-whats-the-frontpage-going-to-look-like-in-the-preseason) * Changelog [on LoL Wiki.](http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/VPBE#Items_2). Item pages for new items are ready to go, though I have to do fix some numbers I've mindlessly copypasted. #Updates since last thread Rioters haven't graced us with a visit in the last thread, but I've compiled a list of the most important questions [here in the Dev Corner](http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/developer-corner/m8EHNfVe-dev-blog-marksman-itemization?comment=000a). TL;DR: * Everything building out of Zeal is here to stay. "Adding more components carries its own costs and the value just isn't there (...) It's not ideal, but I wouldn't consider it a big problem either." - Riot Axes * Riot believes Executioner's Calling is balanced. "We think this model is correct for Executioner's Calling, particularly given the changes to Grievous Wounds (e.g. it no longer applies to healing from allies, so 's W isn't reduced)." * The Bloodthirster recipe has been altered to fix the issue of high combine cost (1500g), by adding a Long Sword (instead of the suggested Vamp Scepter). "The two vamp scepters build path is intriguing, but we really don't want bot lane Bloodthirster rush back right now, and with so little time to test, it was better not to risk it." * Jaurim's Fist upgrades have been fixed. Titanic Hydra cost has been increased to match Ravenous Hydra, Frozen Mallet got +5 AD and Long Sword has been removed from the recipe for Sterak's Gage. * The change to Black Cleaver is intended for fighters and Juggernauts, not ADCs. Compared to the Jaurim upgrades, it's supposed to be more an offensive bruiser item. * The possibility of adding a potion that heals more out of combat or low on health will be looked at (Xypherous). No promises. If you've read the previous thread, the contents of this post are mostly the same. I've cut some of the suprefluous "riot pls" suggestions and added few notes that I've missed the last time around. Also, there's the issue of coloring. --- #Trinkets The changes are nice and meaningful enough to shake things up. Basically my only gripe with it would be the coloring - the orange Oracle's Lens is barely distinguishable from the basic red Sweeping Lens (visually - functionally they're quite different :D). I'd consider making it pink (violet/magenta/fuchsia, whatevs) to match the color of Oracle's Elixir. http://i.imgur.com/ZPOxclJ.png #Starting items and Potions Good changes overall. There are multiple viable combinations, and some neat new options. * Doran's Blade still seems like a solid AD starter, good as a fallback option for pretty much anyone. * Doran's Ring is definitely nicer with the scaling mana regen. Some champions that considered stacking two will continue to do so, and that should make up for the loss of mana pots. * Doran's Shield might need a buff against ranged attacks. * Cull seems underwhelming. It's neither strong early nor efficient late. I think it would be alright if it granted its stats (or part of it) permanently after reaching 100 stacks - it's an effect comparable to a keystone mastery. * Alternative: Have it upgrade to a gold-efficient but slot-inefficient item that would be good for comebacks. * **Why is Amplifying Tome still 435 gold?** This one stands out. Could be 450, could be 400 to allow for amp + 2 potions start. As for potions - they seem alright. Many champions run out of mana, but it can be a good change that forces players to make more conscious decisions - as long as the manaless crowd will be kept in check. Otherwise - hello Yasuo, hello Zed. I'd consider allowing to refill some or all of the potions in Speed Shrines. One issue is lack of alternative options to Corrupting Potion, without the damage component. Many champions would love a potion dedicated to just surviving the lane against lane bullies like Renekton or harassers like Lulu. This might be either another 500g potion or a more expensive one. > **(new item) Rampart Potion** * Recipe: Refilling Potion + 350g * Consumes a charge to restore 200 Health and 80 Mana over 20 seconds and grants Unyielding Rampart for the duration. Holds up to 2 charges that refill upon visiting the store. * Unyielding Rampart - While out of combat, you regain 1% of your missing health every second. Or anything that works for "I'm a toplane tank and Riven/Renekton/Lulu is bullying me, I hate my life and I need a drink". #Jungle It feels much easier for certain champions, while ones like Sejuani are still slow and vulnerable. Also the recommended items need to get updated, but that much should be obvious. * **Hunter's Talisman is much weaker than Hunter's Machete.** Autoattacking champions LOVE the lifesteal on Machete, and I think you guys have already noticed that fact. * Nerfing Machete is not enough, or maybe not even the right way to fix this. Talisman needs a buff. * Also, naming convention: try to call it "Hunter's Amulet" or "Hunter's Pendant". Talisman = Talisman of Ascension. * Hunter's Potion refilling system is great, but for struggling champions it's not enough. It could heal more based on missing HP. Tanks are still screwed. * Tracker's Knife will probably end up as a must-have in competitive, but I like how restrained in power (2 stacks per recall) it is. Sightstone should still be a possibility, especially now with the upgrades. * I like the new color on this one, but yellow would have been even better (completes the red-yellow-blue palette, and fits the unchanged yellow Smite). If you guys could only make Devourer gem more distinct from Warrior... Brighter purple/pink would suffice. * This might be the time to revert some nerfs to Skirmisher's Sabre. It was already one of the least used upgrades, and the main reason for its nerfs was the abundance of toplaners with Smite. There's also a small nitpick about the smite items (smitems) - the colors could be more in line. http://i.imgur.com/8a9i7n6.png Cosmetic change, but would be nice. * Enchantment: Warrior is probably alright, even though it lacks originality. * Some champions would prefer it to be a Dirk upgrade. but that would be too much - Youmuu's is helluva efficient without crit now and 20 arpen on Rengars is more than enough. * The main problem here is the powerspike - **475 gold gives 35 AD** straight out, creating a huge differential between two junglers with small gold deficit, one having completed the item and the other not. Perhaps giving it AD per level or some other form of unique passive (lifesteal applying to champions, +AD/arpen per enemy champion nearby?) would allow to level this cliff. * AD junglers are meant to be strong early, but it would be nice if their item wasn't strictly inferior to other items such as Youmuu's Ghostblade or Death's Dance. * Runeglaive should be more or less the same - still annoyingly underwhelming on Fiddlesticks or Karthus, but quite decent on the likes of Diana and Elise. * Its price is 50g higher than Warrior or Cinderhulk - it should probably be on the same level as Warrior, especially now that it lost some AP. * Overall for AP junglers it's the introduction of Hunter's Potion and Hunter's Talisman that matters, as it might give them a potential route of ignoring the Runeglaive altogether. * **The main problem with the updated Runeglaive** (for the optimal users) **is that mana regen harshly outmatches health regen.** Mana regen from Hunter's Talisman scales nicely, but the health regen does not. AD champions get huge lifesteal against monsters, but mages without sustain are screwed. * Another option would be removing AP from Runeglaive altogether, replacing it with another 10% CDR and health sustain, and dedicating it for early pressure (mostly for assassins). Should be equivalent to Warrior. * In that situation, AP junglers like Fiddlesticks and Karthus could get an **alternative scaling AP enchantment** that would be unattractive to assassins (think stacking AP much like with Devourer). * Devourer is a bit cheaper than the rest, but with AS down it should be alright. Devourer champions might actually see play in competitive with the addition of Rift Herald, as it grants 5 stacks on kill. * I'd say Cinderhulk is overpriced, but perhaps what needs to happen is rather for Sejuani and Sion to get buffed. Their W spells got gutted. TL;DR suggestion > {{item:3714}} Enchantment: Warrior * Recipe: Tier 2 item + Warhammer + 300g * Total cost: 2450g (down from 2625g) * +40 AD **(-25)**, +10% CDR * **(NEW)** Unique Passive: Gain +5 armor penetration per nearby enemy champion Or, like I've said, anything that would give the item some identity without pushing it overboard. Lifesteal scaling off the number of enemy champions is okay as well. Also the whole Runeglaive thing, but let's wait and see how it goes once the changes hit Live. --- #Boots * Boots of Swiftness and Ionian Boots of Lucidity getting down to 800g is a deserved change. Like Mobis, they don't provide statistics essential in all-in trades. I guess this change might have been geared at least partially towards supports. * Merc losing half of its Tenacity is painful, but understandable. There's a lot of MR power budget for tanks and fighters in the buffed Malmortius and Banshee. --- #ADC Itemization It's quite good, with some minor (or major, time will tell) issues. * **IE is probably still an item to rush on most carries.** * Sure, ER became an alternative to it, but instead of allowing for better non-crit builds ER made it "you don't want crit, but you can have your CDR if you buy it". Allowing for good non-crit builds to exist can result in buffing Riven, but there are carries who'd like to go pure AD, like good old Graves or Varus. * I'm still not sure about 250% damage being the way to go. Bleed over time, much like on Lord Van Damm's Pillager - or armor penetration - could prove to be a better solution that doesn't swing short trades too much in one side's favour. * What makes IE rush particularly obnoxious is the mastery that gives 15% lifesteal on crits. The side getting a lucky crit will be at a huge advantage. * Overall AD carries spike as soon as 2 items in. It used to be possible to delay their reign until the third item - they lacked lifesteal or armor penetration component. Now the side completeing IE + Zeal can sustain their health in significant amounts. * We could use an alternative B. F. Sword item with AS (akin to the old old Black Cleaver). Or enable BT start. * Last Whisper nerf is exactly what we've needed. * Tanks will complain about the increased cost of their items, but seriously, this is awesome. It's straight out less armor penetrated at all stages of the game. **You need to have 7 times more bonus armor than base armor for the upgraded LW to hurt you more.** * The passives on its upgrades are great, too - you're either good against health stackers or against high-healing targets, but never both. Definitely a nice opportunity to respond to enemy's build choices. * The Grievous Wounds on any physical damage might be too much - might need a low-health condition like Morellonomicon, or at least an on-hit requirement (if we want long-range spells to proc it, then put it on the full item, and gate it on EC). * Mercurial Scimitar and Death's Dance are great lifesteal options * They might just both outclass Bloodthirster. This again is more of an issue with BT. * Scimitar being easy to assemble promotes using it earlier, and makes it a great purchase after core damage items (it used to be either QSS or lifesteal, now you can have both). * Scimitar could build out of B. F. Sword or grant only 65 AD and it would still be stronger than before (so: yeah, consider altering it) * Death's Dance will be mostly a fighter item (hello Riven), but also a possible alternative to BT for spell-based ADCs. Unless they max out CDR with ER + Triforce right away. * **Youmuu's Ghostblade is now rather an assassin item** * It's also helluva expensive, but then again everything is * Without the crit the assassination attempts should be more consistent - you should know exactly how much power wil that Rengar instagib provide. * Zeal building into Hurricane and Hurricane scaling off crit is cool * Some builds will suffer from it (AP Varus, Teemo), so they might need to be revisited later on * As for Zeal itself, it could as well build out of Cloak of Agility, as Brawler's Gloves don't build into anything else anymore (on SR) * Removal of Brawler's Gloves would go in line with Riot's desire of having no less than 20% crit on champions, making crits more consistent and less "spiky". The only downside would be disabling the ER + Brawler's Gloves start * BotRK nerf is alright and the item needs Lord Dominik's Regards in order to achieve its old onhit power * The fighters who used it as their one-item-wonder " BotRK, then tanky" will not be pleased, though, but that's a good sign - the item was becoming obnoxious Now, here's the other problem. **The new item system is basically 2 versions of the same item**. Instead of enabling diverse build orders and combinations or interesting effects, it's the same pattern every time: |Item class|Key component|Secondary component|Optional component|End items|Similar items |-|-|-|-|- |Core|{{item:1038}} B. F. Sword|{{item:1018}} Cloak of Agility|Pickaxe/Warhammer|IE, ER|BT |DPS|{{item:3086}} Zeal|{{item:1042}} Dagger|Kircheis Shard/Recurve Bow|Shiv, Firecannon, PD, Hurricane|Trinity Force, BotRK |Lifesteal|{{item:1037}} Pickaxe|{{item:1053}} Vampiric Scepter|QSS/Warhammer|Mercurial Scimitar, Death's Dance|Ravenous Hydra, BotRK |Armor penetration|{{item:3035}} Last Whisper|{{item:1036}} Long Sword|Giant Slayer/Exec. Calling|Mortal Reminder/Lord Dominik's Regards|Black Cleaver Notice a pattern? We've got two items with **identical** item recipe (Zeal + Kircheis Shard) and the rest is equally humdrum. Hell, go back to the components: Serrated Dirk and Caulfield Warhammer are identical in components and price, as well, and the new Jaurim's Fist is just another variation of Phage. And then there's Giant Slayer and Executioner's Calling, both just Long Sword upgrades like Vampiric Scepter. Why is that a problem? It removes any sort of strategical choices from the item build that are more than one-dimensional. When choosing between Mortal Reminder and Lord Dominik's Regards, you never have to worry about the stats - you just pick the best passive for the situation. The profit and loss account ends at "do I need to shut down healing, or do I need to deal more damage to their meatshields". If the stats were different, it would add another layer to the whole calculation. The choice between Scimitar and Death's Dance is a better example here - the tradeoff is between the QSS active with MR and CDR with the physical spellvamp, so the things to consider is CDR from other sources (if you have ER, you want to drop Death's Dance) and MR (if you have Banshee, Scimitar might be excessive). So those two are fine, and the rest needs to catch up to speed. #Fighter items This is difficult to assess based on the data I have so far (everyone has been rather picking AD champions over bruisers on PBE). * Trinity Force is now geared even more towards AD champions * Sheen losing AP is harsh for AP champs, but the CDR is neat * Yet to see the change on Jax and Irelia, but I guess nobody will mind them being a bit less obnoxious with it * Maw of Malmortius is awesome * Viable purchase on fighters and carries alike, but mostly fighters * Stacking the flat armor penetration with Ghostblade could be the great return of midlane AD assassins, now stronger than ever against AP champions * **Wit's End still sucks** * Seriously, it's inferior to BotRK and Maw of Malmortius by every possible metric * It needs to build out of Hexdrinker, QSS or a new Dagger + NMM component * If it's priced as a rushable item, it needs to be worth rushing, and Recurve Bow is just throughly underwhelming on fighters * At the very very very least it should build out of Negatron Cloak * Generally it would be great if it took over as the new one-item wonder for tanky champions * Guinsoo's Rageblade will still be a gimmick * AP champions (Kayle, Teemo) will look down on the AD it gives * AD champions (Varus, TF) will look down on AP it gives * But it still can turn out broken on Jax * Considering how long does it take to wind up, lowering the total cost of the item would be fine. * Black Cleaver might no longer be worth rushing on top laners * With 100 health less and costing 500g more, it became a risky purchse * Seriously though, **pushing the combine cost to 1150g might be overshooting it** * Please consider lowering the combine cost to 900-1000 while cutting 5-10 AD off it * Tiamat change is alright * It's cheaper, but the powerspike is less severe now * For melee champions, there are now **three different ways to upgrade Pickaxe + Vampiric Scepter** (Hydra, Scimitar, Death's Dance) * One problem here would be that single-target champions like Trundle and Aatrox lose a key item that made up for their lack of waveclear * **Jaurim's Fist is the return of stacking Warmogs** * It becomes gold efficient after killing 20 creeps, and is worth 1325 gold when fully stacked * Its main strength is building into Sterak's Gage, Frozen Mallet and Titanic Hydra, but on its own it's kinda underwhelming TL;DR suggestions > {{item:3091}} Wit's End * Recipe: {{item:1043}} Recurve Bow + {{item:3140}} Quicksilver Sash + 900g (total cost increased to 3200g from 2800g) * Stats and passive unchanged * Unique Active - Quicksilver: Removes all debuffs and grants 50% Slow Resistance for 3 seconds. This one would be quite sweet on fighters, would replace the niche left after deleting Zephyr, and would probably also replace the Dervish Blade on Crystal Scar. --- #Mage items As a mage player I'm actually quite content with the changes so far, both the last AP batch and the current experience on the PBE server. If anything, the wishlist would contain: * changing the HG recipe to amp tome + 2x ruby crystal, with stats toned to 20 AP + 300 hp, because now at 765 that combine cost is pretty damn high * considering bringing back the Staff of Flowing Water after all, maybe with Aether Wisp in the recipe * and Lost Chapter, while we're at it, just make the final upgrades use different components - codex, wisp, blasting wand * exploring different sources of mana regen (from damage dealt, moving, warding, attacking, visiting speed shrines) * adding Faerie Charm to Aether Wisp's recipe (this is just my personal nitpick to make it different from Codex) Other than that, it's really fine. Not perfect - and definitely could always use some new interesting options - but it's fine. One change you might consider already: > {{item:3115}} Nashor's Tooth * Recipe: {{item:3108}} Fiendish Codex + {{item:1026}} Blasting Wand + {{item:1043}} Recurve Bow + 350g Right now without the Blasting Wand you buy a Codex (800g), sit on 25 AP for a good while, buy only AS, which is quite underwhelming in lane, and suddenly bam, +55 AP outta nowhere when upgrading to Nashor's. Adding a Blasting Wand to the mix fixes that issue. And substituting in Recurve Bow allows to remove Stinger from the game. --- #Tank items Tank items took a huge cost increase, but so did everything. * Randuin's Omen and Dead Man's Plate will continue to be reliable defensive options. * The abundance of crits even among the caster ADCs might be an incentive to give the crit reduction to more items (basically make a component item that builds into Omen and something else). If we'll see Omen every single game on every tanky champion, it's not a good sign. * Thornmail will be extremely useful against heavy on-hit builds (especially Kog'Maw) * If you want to please even the biggest whiners, make the recipe Chain Vest + Chain Vest, would help out with the early purchases. * Iceborn Gauntlet will be better for tanks without the AP, but assembling it is still a huge pain * Just add a Chain Vest to the recipe already, and increase the total cost to 2800 to match Frozen Hearrt * The buffs to Banshee's Veil and Spirit Visage are insane * Seriously though, 70 MR is the same as Force of Nature. The item that had to be removed because it made the mages' lives miserable. * Furthrermore, Banshee still grants less health regen than its components (100% to 150+50% from components). * I'd consider lowering HP on SV to 450 and lowering MR on Banshee to 60-65 (while correcting its regen to 200%) * Raptor's Cloak and its upgrades will still continue to suck * Are you guys afraid of these item ever being viable or what * These items are almost useless when behind, and when ahead you're better off building general durability and tanking the damn turret * Partially the reason is that early on the % increased health regen doesn't do a thing * Also Point Runner is never really noticeable - if you're diving the tower, you're usually doing it with your jungler, and MS does not help as much as simply tanking, bursting, and juggling aggro does * Imagine a passive that works only near Dragon. Would anyone buy it if it wasn't blatantly overpowered? Staff of Flowing Water worked because it's the Mana Font passive that's the key here. * All in all, Ohmwrecker and Zz'Rot Portal pale in comparison to the alternatives (Omen, Sunfire, DMP, GA), which will be more slot efficient and will always provide effects in combat that are more than just flat stats TL;DR suggestions > {{item:3025}} Iceborn Gauntlet * Recipe: {{item:1031}} Chain Vest + {{item:3057}} Sheen + {{item:3024}} Glacial Shroud + 50g (total cost increased to 2800g from 2700g) > {{item:2053}} Raptor's Cloak * Recipe: {{item:1029}} Cloth Armor + {{item:1006}} Rejuvenation Bead + 100g = 650g * +20 armor, +100% health regeneration * Unique Passive - Feathershroud: -10% damage taken from Critical Strikes * Point Runner removed Considering the lack of crits in lane (unless it's Yasuo or Gangplank) the item should not be overwhelming or a must-have on everyone. It should scale up into the lategame really nicely, though. Most important part - it's cheap, easily affordable and should help you in surviving the lane. > {{item:3143}} Randuin's Omen * Recipe: {{item:3082}} Warden's Mail + {{item:2053}} Raptor's Cloak + {{item:1011}} Giant's Belt + 200g = 3000g * +60 armor, +400 health **(-50)**, +100% health regeneration **(new)** * Unique Passive - Feathershroud: -10% damage taken from Critical Strikes * Passive and active unchanged So basically what happens is that now the crit reduction is shared among other items. Health is back down to 400 to account for the gained regen. > {{item:3056}} Ohmwrecker * Recipe: {{item:1031}} Chain Vest + {{item:2053}} Raptor's Cloak + {{item:3067}} Kindlegem + 700g = 3000g * +60 armor **(+10)**, +400 health **(+100)**, +100% health regeneration (-50), +10% cooldown reduction * Unique Passive - Feathershroud: -20% damage taken from Critical Strikes * Point Runner removed * Active: while the tower is disabled, your first attack to it deals 500 damage Now the ultimate towerdiving item, with much better durability, also scaling nicely to lategame with significant crit reduction. > {{item:3512}} Zz'Rot Portal * Recipe: {{item:1031}} Chain Vest + {{item:2053}} Raptor's Cloak + {{item:3067}} Negatron Cloak + 480g = 2700g * +60 armor, +200% health regeneration (+75), +60 magic resistance * Unique Passive - Feathershroud: -15% damage taken from Critical Strikes * Point Runner removed * Active unchanged If anything I'd consider adding some neat interaction with teammates to Portal, making the structure a "siege camp", or allowing for teammates to click and "channel" on the portal to do something (buff, fast recall). The crit reduction alone makes this item worth considering. #Support Job well done. * Twins combined with FQC solves problems of both items * FQC will probably get abused by midlaners, especially Brand * Sightstone upgrades, even if competitively not viable, will surely satisfy the selfish supports who don't really want to build any support items. * Why isn't Eye of the Equinox green? The other two are in line with their GP10 base color. * The loss of flat MS on the Talisman line might be overkill * Rejuvenation Bead and Faerie Charm building into tier 2 items is awesome, especially considering the removal of mana potions * The only problem would be that Aether Wisp, designed at first as a support item, now doesn't build into any support item other than Ardent Censer TL;DR suggestion give Coin-Medallion-Talisman its 10 MS back, and > {{item:3050}} Zeke's Harbinger * Recipe: {{item:3024}} Glacial Shround + {{item:3113}} Aether Wisp + 500g (total cost unchanged) * +30 armor, +40 AP **(-10)**, +250 mana, +10% CDR, +5% MS * Passive/active unchanged And tada, Aether Wisp has a second support upgrade. Also, there's a small coloring incinsitency with Eye of the Equinox - it's not green enough. Please change the background at least. http://i.imgur.com/ih0u4mt.png --- #The big TL;DR 1. IE and ER are still powerful rushable items, now easier to assemble with lower BFS cost 2. The keystone mastery with lifesteal on crit might be a bit too much combined with IE (nerf IE pls) 3. The Zeal upgrades are all the same thing stat-wise, you just pick one of few available passives 4. Same goes for the LW upgrades 5. Fighter items took a hit (Black Cleaver), but the new options are interesting (Jaurim's Fist) 6. Mage items are actually (mostly) okay considering the changes to goldstream (more gold from all sources overall) 7. Tank items need some minor changes 8. Changes to starting and jungle items are good, just Machete is way stronger than Taisman right now 9. For the love of God it's been four years and you guys still have no idea what to do with Wit's End or Ohmwrecker And that would be it, for now. Tomorrow the patch hits Live and we'll see for sure.
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