Quinn PBE Feedback Thread

____________________ _Closing PBE Thoughts 11/3_ Hi guys, As I tend to try to do with the Champion Updates I work on, this update to the post is to wrap up all the feedback you've delivered in the last week or so, and give everyone a heads up as to where Quinn functionally stands as the patch is locked down. As I mentioned in the 11/1 update, the version of Quinn with the ultimate that has been on PBE is going Live in 5.22. That said, we will be also be doing a follow-up test period on PBE for the 5.23 patch cycle, the changes for which we have begun testing internally already. For those wondering what to expect from Quinn in 5.22, she will be mostly what has been on PBE for the last few days, but likely with the addition of a small nerf or two to her Q, a spell which ultimately we thought was doing too much raw damage. Knowing that we intend to test follow up to these changes very soon, we didn't want to give players the impression that updated Quinn is more fun or a better character by virtue of raw damage output in the snowball case, so we decided to mitigate the late game burst provided by that spell before it became an issue. This isn't to say we expect her to be strictly weak in 5.22 from a power perspective, but more that we thought she was erring on the side of too strong without damage adjustments and the R cost adjustments that hit the PBE yesterday. Now let's talk about what we're looking to test in the 5.23 PBE patch cycle. I definitely haven't been at a shortage of feedback in Quinn's time on the PBE, and I'm thankful for everyone letting me know what they think. That kind of feedback has helped me to be able to identify which changes were causing excessive unintended pain to players, and which were actually necessary to help move Quinn in the direction of the gameplay niche we envision for her. To get to the point, I'll note this isn't a complete revert of all the changes, and that we will be keeping the new ultimate and its visuals. I previously mentioned that I'm really sorry if that ruins the champion for you personally, but we do firmly believe this component to be a definitive step in the right direction for Quinn and Valor. Outside of that, however, we're exploring some change options outside of the R that we think will be exciting for Quinn players. First off, feedback has pretty consistently been that too much damage is loaded into Aerial Assault, at the expense of damage from Harrier. This resulted in Harrier damage feeling much less satisfying to players, especially in lane where they were used to those hits being really meaty and important to take advantage of. Second, and perhaps more importantly, we agree with the pretty-consistent feedback that Q as a pure damage tool may not fit on the character. Currently, we're exploring a version of Q where it loses its execution damage and cooldown return mechanic, but pretty dramatically reduces the vision radius of the primary target hit (akin to Graves W or Nocturne R). We hope that this will be a decent way to give back some of that utility and outplay potential that Quinn players like about the spell, without using the actual Blind debuff effect that we feel is overly punishing to melee champions and pushes her hard toward being specifically a top lane bully. Functionally, the spell becomes "line missile that Harrier marks and reduces the vision radius of the primary target, and deals damage to everything in that area." We may additionally explore some changes to spell names and R tuning (it may be going overboard on its overall power budget contribution at the moment) as appropriate. Please do keep in mind that none of the above changes are final or guaranteed, but more that they are what we intend to test out in the weeks ahead. We'll then likely gauge how the feedback on those changes goes for that PBE cycle, and make a decision as to whether to update the Live environment with those changes in 5.23, or stay closer to the version that's going Live in 5.22. Since I'm sure people will ask the following questions,I'll answer it up front: * Why are you shipping this version to 5.22 instead of keeping Live Quinn if you still intend to test changes in 5.23? * First and foremost, we do strongly believe that the 5.22 version (the one that is currently on the PBE) is a step in the right gameplay direction, and getting players access to that version (even if it may change meaningfully in the next patch) at the beginning of the preaseason sets them off on the path to familiarizing themselves with and mastering a champion most similar to the one it will be for the foreseeable future. * Second, in this update, Quinn's Passive and E have actually undergone tremendous restructuring and fine tuning under the hood (much of which has resulted in really positive feedback for these components of the update), and that this juncture, it wouldn't really be possible to rewrite all of those improvements into the old scripts in a way that doesn't severely compromise the quality (from a functional perspective) of the patch. Thanks to everyone that gave feedback on the update to Quinn and Valor for this PBE cycle. You can continue to play the champion and give feedback as you please, but for the most part, the build needs to be locked down to ensure its stability at this point, so I can at most do minor bugfix and feel improvement changes. Hopefully we can continue to push the character in a positive direction in the weeks to come. See you next patch, Repertoir ____________________ _End Of Weekend Thoughts 11/1_ Hi everyone, Sorry for the lack of interaction since Friday. I've been keeping up with the thread here and others elsewhere, and I felt like I didn't really have much new to add, especially since PBE doesn't get new builds between Friday and Monday. I spent a good share of the weekend watching Quinn PBE games and talking to various people about her, fixing up some feel stuff that I saw that looked off to me, and making small under the hood and bugfix type changes to make things work as expected. On the note of player feedback, there are some pretty consistent comments/concerns I've seen that I'll try and start to address here. * To all the players upset that they cannot turn into Valor and fight anymore, I am sorry that that was so important to you as far as playing the champion goes, but that aspect of these changes is just not going to change. Truly, I'm very sorry if that ruins the champion for you, but I'd prefer to be forthcoming about the fact that it's not going to change than leave you hanging waiting for an answer forever. I hope you can find enjoyment eventually in this new version of the champion, or that there is another champion out there that can give you a similar feeling to the previous version of Quinn, but if not, I understand. * To the players saying that her base play pattern feels bland now, I agree that there is some work to do on that front. The amount of damage coming from Q relative to passive feels off at the moment from what I can tell, and Skystrike in its somewhat vestigial form seems to be making things feel worse than if I'd actually removed it and put that power elsewhere. * To the players commenting that they'd like a new ult name given the changes, this makes sense to me and is something I'll bring up this week. * To the players worried that Quinn will be too strong or too weak following these changes, there will be follow-up in the several subsequent patches to make sure she lands in a good spot. * Similarly, to those worried that the champion won't release as they'd like in 5.22, I pretty consistently do follow-up work on champions when they go to Live to fix up gameplay that isn't working quite right, as well as to solve issues that were either unforeseen or that we took risks on in the initial launch patch. Thanks for all your testing and feedback to this point. I really do appreciate everyone's input. Repertoir ____________________ _End Of Day Thoughts 10/29_ Hi all, The first day of PBE gameplay is wrapping up, and I wanted to post an update that details how I think she did today, and answer some common questions that I've been seeing. Finally, I'll post some concrete changes for tomorrow. **First Impressions of PBE gameplay and overall power level...** I've seen a few reports that are claiming to have had successful experiences today, but mostly I think she's been underperforming due to a few issues that I'd like to address. Unfortunately, due to an issue with a build failing last night, some of these changes were intended to be in today, but didn't quite make it in. * Harrier feels like its hits could be meatier in the early game. I would like Quinn to have kill potential on opponents in some situations, especially when they make mistakes, and I don't feel like it's there at the moment. Largely, Harrier procs don't seem all that worth going for as Quinn in the early game. * Quinn's Q is now all about damage and passive procs, and I don't feel it's delivering at the moment. One of the bigger issues I see with Q at the moment is that it just doesn't scale. Given that it has lost its utility, I do feel this spell needs to pack a punch. * Quinn's R has no cooldown, but it feels like it's too Mana gated at the moment for her to live the dream. **Some common questions/concerns I've seen...** * Why isn't Skystrike triggering when I Vault from Tag Team? * Unintended/bug. This will be fixed in the next upcoming build. * Vault is landing me outside my maximum Attack Range from the target. * Vault had an issue where its slow was decaying during the bump, so you would lose some of the best slow in there. I've fixed that, so I'm hoping that addresses range discrepancies with where you land from Vault. If you continue to have issues, please do report it and I'll make her return distance a little bit shorter. * Has E range been nerfed? * Not exactly, its range is a slightly smaller number, but it is checking from the edge of the target's hitbox rather than its center. If it feels shorter, do let me know. * Why are you trying to force crit onto her? * It's not so much that I'd love for her to build crit as it is that crit is a major stat in the marksman itemization updates. Since she didn't have any particular synergy with it before, I wanted to make sure it at least didn't feel bad. **Changes for 10/30** * P - Harrier * Total Attack Damage ratio increased from 1.25/1.30/1.35/1.40/1.45/1.50 at levels 1/4/7/10/13/16 to 1.50 at all levels * Q - Aerial Assault * Base Damage reduced 50/80/110/140/170 >>> 10/40/70/100/130 (before increase from missing Health) * 0.35 Bonus AD (before increase from missing Health) ratio removed * Total AD ratio (before increase from missing Health) added at 0.6/0.7/0.8/0.9/1.0 with spell rank * E - Vault * Fixed a bug where Vault's slow was being applied too early and thus decaying too soon * R - Tag Team * Mana Cost reduced 120/60/0 >>> 80/40/0 Thanks for all the great feedback so far! -Repertoir ____________________ _End Of Day Thoughts 10/28_ Hi everyone, I've been spending that last several hours taking in everyone's thoughts on the changes. I fully understand that many of you are unhappy, mainly with the blind removal, but also with the R changes. One question that I've seen pretty regularly is why I would remove Quinn's identity, and I wanted to address that particular concern. I believe this concern results from the fact that various players have different visions for what Quinn's identity is, as she is pulled in many different directions. Depending on the player, she may resonate most strongly as a duelist, an assassin, a splitpusher, a melee fighter, a scout, or something else entirely. In choosing where we wanted Quinn to shine, we took these things into consideration, and the conclusion we came to was that she would be the most interesting, unique marksman possible if she had map presence like no other marksman (or potentially no other champion) in the game. She was not going to be the best assassin, the best duelist, or the best splitpusher. There was just no way. Most of the players that wanted that version of Quinn to remain were just asking for buffs for their main, and there wasn't really much room to work with there. I understand the shock value that comes with changes like these, but I also know that no one here has even played the changes yet, so this is emotional feedback at this point. I know that no one was necessarily asking for these specific changes, but I do think that there is something about Quinn players that they want a compelling, unique play experience. For all the various things that Quinn meant to Quinn players, they all seemed to value that she was a unique experience to them that they could not get elsewhere. I intend to keep that element of uniqueness true of this version of Quinn as well. I won't promise you that she's going to have her blind back, or that I will make changes for every request I get here, but I do plan to deliver on a truly unique play style that no other champion has, and I would love feedback that helped us arrive at that end. I'm not asking anyone to act like they like something they don't, but I am asking that your feedback be aimed at helping us arrive at the best possible end product, as that is the goal here. Going into her first day of PBE, we are aiming for her to be a marksman that excels at map presence over all others out there. If you feel like she's not living up to that, it would help me greatly to let me know that she isn't, and why. Anyway, it's important to me that everyone knows their feedback is not falling on deaf ears, because it's not. I'm looking forward to her first day of PBE tomorrow. Cheers, Repertoir ____________________ Original Post: Hi guys, With preseason hitting the PBE shortly and Quinn being one of the six main marksmen getting an update, I wanted to put up a post to gather feedback on her changes for her time on the PBE before release. Rather than a long line-by-line changelist on the PBE, you'll instead find the main changes going on in Quinn's update in the body of the thread, not necessarily in P,Q,W,E,R order. Changes: * ** Tag Team (R) has been heavily repurposed into a strategic map mobility tool:** * Tag Team's visuals have been changed from Quinn leaving the game space to Valor flying Quinn around beneath him. * Tag Team now has a 2-second channel at its start, and no longer has combat spells or basic attacks. * Tag Team now has no cooldown, and its Movement Speed bonus is now very dramatic. * Skystrike has been retained, but deals less damage and does not deal increased damage based on targets' missing Health. * ** Blinding Assault (Q) has been repurposed (and renamed) into more of a waveclearing tool and less of a dueling tool:** * Q's name has been changed to Aerial Assault, because... the spell no longer blinds. * Aerial Assault now marks its primary target as Vulnerable (passive mark). * Aerial Assault now does up to double damage based on targets' missing Health. * Half of Aerial Assault's cooldown is refunded if it kills at least one enemy. * **Various other changes:** * Harrier (P) attacks now deal a percentage of Quinn's total AD rather than a base and bonus AD ratio. * Vault (E) has had its dash speed increased, and it should now more reliably return you along the vector you dashed in on. The above changes are the main ones that should most dramatically change the way Quinn plays following her update. Please feel free to give feedback on any of the above stuff, and do let me know if anything feels off about the character in ways you wouldn't expect given the above information. I did quite a bit of script cleanup on her, so I want to make sure I didn't change the feel of things in ways I didn't intend. Thanks all, Repertoir
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