Cassiopeia, Texture and Gameplay Update

------------------------------------------------------------ ***Update:*** She'll be hitting live servers soon! Not many changes to report, still tracking particles and power levels, and still monitoring all the things we discussed. - Reverted Q base damage to live values. CD at early levels and ratio at later levels turned out to be sufficient power tunings. - We put levers in place to adjust her power level on alternate maps by tweaking the passive a bit, but have not yet acted on this. Alternate map balance may end up being post-release because we simply don't have enough data for her on alternate maps. Sorry :(. Thanks again everyone, and please continue to alert me to any of you concerns! --------------------------------------------------- Hey guys! Coupled with all these other upcoming Shurima releases, we've got an update to Cassiopeia for ya. Cassiopeia has always had some really cool stuff on her kit, and we saw this as a great opportunity to polish her up and really accentuate her interesting strengths. Here’s what we’re hoping to accomplish with these changes: 1. Emphasize Cassiopeia's carry potential Cassiopeia has always been thought of as one of the highest potential damage sources in League of Legends, so we've taken this opportunity to really push her into that niche. Alongside this is giving her a unique and powerful endgame goal-- take a look at her new passive for more information here. 2. Increase reliability The reset mechanic on Twin Fang often feels like it doesn't work properly, even when it does. So, we’re adding a few tweaks here to make Twin Fang just a touch more reliable-- and from what we've seen, even a little bit of reliability on Cassiopeia goes a longggg way. 3. Tone down her lane bullying Historically, when Cassiopeia has been strong, her laning was oppressive to the point of being problematic. We're looking to fix this by toning down some of her early power and making space to give her very powerful tools for the late game. 4. Channel her damage potential into her single target spell, Twin Fang We plan on giving Cassiopeia a lot of late game power-- way too much to comfortably fit into her spammable aoe spells. Don't worry though, Noxious blast and Miasma are still going to be very important and impactful spells, but we'll be shifting some of their damage into utility so as to allow Cassiopeia better access to her E. And with that in mind, here are the specifics: Aspect of the Serpent * Old passive: removed! * New passive: Cassiopeia permanently gains a stack of Aspect of the Serpent for each second that she has poisoned an enemy champion, for each poisoned unit that she kills, and every time she hits an enemy champion with Twin Fang. Caps at 400 stacks. * 75 stacks: 5% increased Ability Power. Twin Fang restores 6/8/10/12/16 (+0.1 ability power) health. * 200 stacks: 10% increased Ability Power. Cassioepeia gains 25% CDR * 400 stacks: 30% increased Ability Power. Noxious Blast Provides Cassiopeia more movement speed later in the game but, in turn, deals less damage. * Damage: 75/115/155/195/235 (+0.35 ability power) over 3 seconds * Movement speed: 10/15/20/25/30% * Cooldown: 4 seconds * Mana cost: 40/45/50/55/60 * Delay increased by 0.05 seconds Miasma Now a notably more powerful slow tool but has a higher cooldown and deals less damage. * Damage per second: 10/15/20/25/30 (+0.1 ability power) for 7 seconds * Cooldown: 14/13/12/11/10 Second * Mana cost: 40/50/60/70/80 * Slow: 25/30/35/40/45% Twin Fang Is now MUCH more reliable when checking for poisoned targets and has a higher AP ratio later in the game. Also, now grants mana upon killing a unit. * Damage: 55/80/105/130/155 (+0.4/0.45/0.5/0.55/0.6 ability power) * Mana cost: 30/45/60/75/90 * Cooldown: 5 seconds * Utility: Now refunds its mana cost plus an additional 3% of Cassiopeia's total mana when it kills a unit. * Usability: Now has additional checks in place to see if target was poisoned. Petrifying Gaze Lower cooldown, but also slightly lower damage. * Damage: 150/250/350 (+0.5 ability power) * Cooldown: 120/110/100 And that's it. I’m sure Cassiopeia veterans out there have some concerns about some of these damage changes, so I'd like to highlight a few things. * The reliability change to Twin Fang cannot be understated * This has huge implications on her DPS potential. More E's with a higher ratio = more DPS. For anyone used to playing Cassiopeia, you'll notice a difference immediately. * Much of her kit has been restructured to make Twin Fang more accessible * 25% CDR, buffed movespeed on Q, a buffed slow on W, and a lower cooldown on R all come together to make Cassiopeia's damage more readily available. * Additionally, the life on hit on Twin Fang allows Cassiopeia to stay in fights for longer periods of time, much like lifesteal does for AD carries. This means Cassiopeia will be free to do more damage over the course of a fight. * Aspect of the Serpent grants Cassiopeia significant AP in the late game * This'll help make up for some of the base damage tuning, but also simply give her more damage than ever before at full build So! Please let us know what it feels like to play with this new passive. I’m particularly interested in the following: Does “Aspect of the Serpent” change the way you think about the laning phase while playing Cassiopeia? Does Cassiopeia feel particularly powerful in the late game as a result of her passive? How do the usability changes to Twin Fang feel? Lastly, as with most content on the PBE, keep in mind that many aspects of Cassiopeia are still works in progress-- which means some things might look a bit weird, and others will likely be a little buggy. We’re already working on a lot of this, and we'd love to hear your feedback in case there’s anything not already on our radar. Alright, that's all for now, but I'll be around! I hope you enjoy Cassiopeia on the PBE! *edited for clarity
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Are these changes already on the PBE?
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They'll be on the next build! So, expect them soon.
Is the 30% cdr a "subtle" push towards Cassiopeia building Will of the Ancients?
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There are a lot of items with exactly 10% CDR, WotA being a good example of one. I'm sure WotA will be strong on Cassiopeia now, especially paired with the life on hit, but the number there was really so that things like blue buff and elixir of brilliance would top her off at 40%. It's definitely a number we're looking at, something lower might be more appropriate to allow for runes/masteries.
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Will her passive decay or is it permanent?
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The stacks she gains and the bonuses she unlocks are permanent! I'll try to think of a way to make this clearer in the tooltip.
The server is unavailable.. is this correct?
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I believe that's because the next build is currently in progress. If everything goes according to plan, things should be up and running again (with the Cassiopeia update) in an hour or so. I'll check back around then to confirm.
Stashu can I just say ur a awesome Riot Employee since your replying to almost every single comment? Ur the man! <3
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<333. Admittedly, I won't be able to keep this up for long, but I'll try!
Do you already have some more information around the server being unavailable? I am currently streaming and waiting for PBE to come online, haha! If you want to check it out I am over at: http://www.twitch.tv/bandiguy
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Nothing specific, but it seems the build was delayed a bit (about an hour), so my estimation was probably off by around that amount. I'll let you know if more information comes my way, sorry this isn't more helpful :<
They definitely look nice since her Twin Fangs are her main damage source and her whole kit is now much more build around them aswell as the passive change that will increase her late game power alot due to the heal with every Twin Fang and the 30% more AP if the passive is fully stacked will help alot since i tend to build alot more defensive items 'cause the fact that her biggest Damage output is a spammable ablity that requires certain conditions to do so aswell as the fact that her Twin Fangs don't have the biggest range (~600 i guess?). Further removing the only let's say "sustain", which felt honestly quite useless and giving her a real one with the new passive on her Twin Fangs. The increased movementspeed boost on her q and the stronger slow will help her alot with sticking with her target or least it looks like that on the paper. I'm not hundred percent sure about her laning phase yet but it seems weaker compared to her on the live servers which is a good trade-off for her powerful late game. As for now i can only say good job making her a bigger threat in the late game but giving her meaningful weakness.
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Glad to hear your reactions, as this is pretty much exactly what we were going for :D. Can't wait to see how she does on the PBE and assess how close we are to our mark.
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Okay that's probably the strongest passive in the game then. (except for poppy's that one is just wrong…). Anyway I won't lie, just seeing the numbers feels like a giant nerf. Q-scaling cut in less than half plus reduced dmg, W dmg cut in half and the compensation is 0.05 more scaling on E. Her entire dog was reduced significantly so the passive has to make up for all of that. I like the idea behind it though.
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For me, the important part is that you like the idea, thanks =D We can change damage numbers around until they are in a good spot, and this will close monitoring and a lot of time. As long as the idea behind it is interesting, however, it will all be worth!
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Those 30% CDR are awkward. It basically forces you to waste either mastery points or items stats. It should be reduced to 25% to make Sorcery in the offense tree not feel like a bad choice. >New passive: Cassiopeia **permanently** gains a stack of Aspect of the Serpent for each second that an enemy champion is poisoned and for each poisoned unit that she kills. Her ability power is increased by 1% for every 25 stacks, up to a max of 375 stacks.
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I think you're right here. Will likely act on this.
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Oh by the way. I have never seen you before Stashu. Are you new at Riot?
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Yep =D.
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Cool, grats on getting a job at Riot! What's your position? Champion Design? Live Team?
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Thanks! Yeah I'm on the Live Team! Doing some champion design-y stuff though, like working on these Cassiopeia changes.
Since her ult was pretty clunky to begin with, is there anything that will fix how unreliable it was?
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We think that the unreliability of her ultimate (in that sometimes it doesn't stun when you want it to) has some unique and cool gameplay to it, though probably not as much as it originally was expected to. Hence, we're willing to leave the unreliability here because the long telegraph and the turn-around gameplay are meaningful. The unreliability on her E reset was really just a bother and wasn't contributing anything, so that seemed like a great place to up reliability.
This seems a really nice change on Cassiopea, since her old passive doesn't give so much sustain when you have a Tear of Goddess (it was my main item with Rylai in Cassio). The brand new passive is amazing, I like it so muuuch. All of her kit now seems to fit perfectly well, since now she has a nice wombo combo. And that sustain with the heal with every E it's just what she needs, since Cassio in TF needs tanky or something to get life (Like Warmog or WotA), so now it's wonderful. I wanna try this new Cassio, because I think this will a nice champ to play from now on
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Really glad to hear it! Let us know what you think of everything after you get a chance to play her :D
Isn't the passive a bit too strong... Since i didn't test her i can't say a lot. But still with just **2** big ap items + runes one from the rabadon you can easily reach **450 Ap** which you would normally get from **3-4** items so you still have **4** items to fully **tank** and still have as much ap as your opponent. And if you would add a Archangel's Staff you'd have lots of mana to spam skills still 3 items to tank **660 ap** and 40% free cdr do to passive + random item (or runes). And on top of that you have a slight heal (which isn't to underestimate **77hp** do to ap scaling) and mana sustain 3% total mana (*65 mana* on kill with seraph at lv 18). And all of that you shuold be able too reach at 25-30min which to me seems a little bit to fast.
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Fair point, it very well might be too strong. However, there are plenty of places to tune. For example, the loads of AP from the passive can be more or less powerful based on her ratios. Giving her a lot of AP over the course of the game allows us to make her strong where we want her to be. To explain, we gave her a lot of AP, but significantly reduced AP ratio on her Q and W while slightly buffing her E. The end result: she'll be delaing notably more damage on E, and notably less elsewhere--OVERALL. Including the AP we're giving her. So, if it feels too strong, please let me know! Specifically, which areas feel out of line, since there are so many.
I'll cross-post what I said on Reddit here as well so you guys working hard on this might see it :)....: As a long time Cass (on Twisted Treeline) player, this is a welcome change. I know a lot of Cass fans and league players in general are going to be stunned by the new passive, but I think the real victory here is the new way E will work. So many times over the year I've been playing her I've felt her E lagging behind when targets are poisoned, or similarly it seems to not start happening until the poison is nearly over so I only get one or two E's in before the effect ends. Good job Riot! I do think it is possible we will see a change to the passive during her time on the PBE, as well as the semi-random 30% CDR instead of something like 20-25% to make use of masteries/runes.
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Yeah we think the E changes will be a really big win, and even if we end up rolling back some of the passive stuff, the E change will stay. Glad you picked up on this! So far, we haven't done very much analysis on how these changes will perform on TT. I understand that Cassiopeia has been a big part of the meta on TT, so I hope we can find a good place for her there even after these changes.
This actually looks REALLY strong. Especially the passive healing - since she gets so much bonus AP, will she end up getting like 100+ healing per cast of E? :o Someone threatens Cass -> allied Vi ult -> Cass regains full HP before enemy comes down... Also it looks kinda awkward to cut off at 375 and not 400... Love the idea though! :D P.S.: How does her passive work with Rabadabadingdong's Hat?
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Come end game, a full AP Cass will be healing for 100+ on E, yeah :<. We'll be monitoring this! I think it will take a while to find the right number for the breakpoints. At 400 stacks, the AP Bonus ends up at 32%, which is also slightly awkward. Can't really win there haha. We're working on ways to solve this, I think we're onto something good. Definitely expect iteration in that area. Glad you're excited =D.
Man that passive seems insane! Maximum stacks means that she gets 30% increased AP. Now, I hope this means that a Rabadon's would give her 60% increased AP and not increase the increased amount meaning INSANE AP AMOUNTS! Besides that, I love the new Cass and I hope she gets the attention she deserves since she has been out of the light for a long time although she is going to have to compete with Azir for middle lane on release unless Azir becomes another ranged top lanes, which I can see happening after some matches since all top lane Azir matchups Ive seen end with him harrassing them out of lane and getting out easily with his W and E and R.
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I'm glad you bring this up, I'd like to be clear on the deathcap interaction. Aspect of the Serpent applies first, then Deathcap, so: At 100 AP, for ease of math, at 400 stacks: 100 x 0.3 = +30 AP from AotS, = 130 AP 130 x 0.3 = +39 AP from Deathcap = 169 AP. The archmage mastery also comes after AotS, but before Deathcap. If this doesn't seem to be functioning properly, please let me know :D
(Sorry if this is a double post but i cant find my last post so going to have to retry..) I play Cass as a poisoner leveling E last as i just enjoy that more then E spamming. With the dmg being reduced loads on both Q and W that build is not destroyed is it not? Dont get me wrong its nice that you are working on it and that ppl are happy about it. Just seems like something i would truelly miss if it gets destroyed..
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Yeah, I hear you. In this update, E has been favored quite highly over her poison abilities, in terms of damage. On the bright side, the bonus AP from her passive compensates slightly for the reduced ratios in her poison abilities. Also, Liandry's still works as well as before. ALSOOO the bonus MS increase on Q and the increased slow on W mean that you'll have more powerful positioning tools to continually reapply poison. I think you'll still be able to find success with the poisoner build, even if it is less optimal than the Twin Fang build.
I hope so sorry if i seemed ungrateful. Used to be a Karma main so i thought a other champion i love was being taken away and kinda paniced. Truelly hope it works out tho Rylai's and Liandra's together were amazing for me and i got to toy around loads. Anyways thank you for replying and thank you for working on it. I know end of the day it will be better overall. Just be sad to see somerthing i enjoy go away is all :) Hope you understand!
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It didn't come across like that at all! Thanks for being so understanding, I deeply appreciate your attitude here.
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I actually prefer to play her that way too. From how her passive works I feel like now she actually plays even more like a poisoner but later transitions into the twin fang user which I am fine with.
But wouldnt you end up screwing yourself over now if you were to play like that still as both abilities lack dmg now? Ratios and flat dmg being lowered pretty heavy and all.
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So, the hope is that by accurately landing Q's on opponents in lane and playing like the DoT poison mage that Cassio has been, you build up your passive over the course of the game. Q or E will likely be viable max-first choices, depending on the lane--if you do max Q, you should be be able to find success. Eventually however, the base damage on Q becomes eclipsed by the ratio on E, and E becomes your primary damage spell, with Q/W/R still being integral parts of your fighting toolkit.
Hey Riot Stashu, I am overflowing with soo much anticipation to try this new Cassiopeia top and mid, she seems absolutely terrifying. I just have 2 questions, 1st - Are you guys planning on fixing her ultimate cone? Currently, it was one of the reasons why I stopped playing her, because when champions would close the gap against me, they would be in the blind spot between the beginning of the cone (on the model, when she casts it, it starts at her face, as opposed to her center) and the center of her model. Will this be addressed in this update? I know you talked about preserving some of the unreliability of her ultimate, but this part seems kinda unclear to most players. 2nd - Whenever I play ranked, especially duo queue in diamond, my higher elo friends would always exclaim that the enemy Cassiopeia was scripting (most noticeably by being able to use the backwards e trick). With the way Cassiopeia is designed, she is vulnerable to people abusing her for scripts. Will there be anything introduced to stop this. Thanks, and I honestly can't wait to try her out
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I'm really excited that you're excited =D!!! So I think the problem you're outlining is an illusion created by her model's animations. That is, she contorts her body when she casts Petrifying Gaze (which makes things confusing), and the particle is projected from her head, but, in actual fact, the cone draws from the center point of wherever you cast the spell from. This is valuable feedback though, I'll do a quick look into making this clearer, though I'm not sure if I'll easily be able to solve it. As a general rule, we are aware that scripting is popular on some champions. I don't have the context to answer this question, but I assure you that the relevant people here are looking into this on a larger scale.
Howdy there: I've tried over and over to like Cassiopeia: I bought her and her Mythic skin the first time the skin went on sale (cuz I love the skin and hate her default hat thing), but I'd never been able to play her to the usefulness of my Anivia or Orianna or Syndra (the other 100-difficulty champions, all of whom I do fine with). I always felt like Cass just wasn't strong enough to make up for her increased difficulty. This looks like it changes that a lot. Thank you for these changes: it really does look like you're positioning Cass as the amazing sustained-damage APC that I've always wanted her to be. A quick question, though: Does her Twin Fang now scale with CDR? I've never had trouble keeping people poisoned with just Chalice for CDR, and on live Twin Fang gets reset down to flat .5 seconds, regardless of CDR. If that is still so, I feel like the CDR is going to feel like a wasted stat. Her Q poisons don't stack (I think), so it doesn't actually give her any more damage than before. As a damage-focused APC, I just feel like the CDR could be replaced with something more damage-focused. And about the visuals: I love what you've done with all of the skins EXCEPT FOR HER FACE. I own Mythic and DO NOT APPROVE of you taking away her smooth face. Cass is supposed to be a seductive character (or at least was until being turned into a Naga), and that sharp face she had in her default skin was part of the reason that I disliked it so: it doesn't jive, and honestly I thought it was hideous. Now you've gone and put that same face on Mythic, and I just have to beg you to please reconsider. The rest of the TU is fine, but I would definitely prefer if you'd take the face the other way: give the default the rounder face of the skins instead of the skins the sharper face of the default. Thanks!
Strongly agree
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About CDR: You're instincts here are correct, poisons don't stack, and CDR is generally less valuable on Cassiopeia than other AP casters. However, CDR does do some good stuff. Firstly, her MS boost from Q will be up more often as a result of it. This is very meaningful in her ability to reposition and get more E's off. Secondly, the non-reset CD on Twin Fang does benefit from CDR. This is an important part of increasing its reliability. That is, if you miss an E with all that CDR, it's not quite as punishing as it would be without it. With 40% CDR, E goes from a 5 second cooldown to a 3 second cooldown. As for the texture stuff, I'll pass your feedback along to the folks working more directly on that, thanks!
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Oh, I meant to reply to the main post, sorry M3DI3VAL! I touch on your concerns here as well, though.
Just want to extend my thanks for you being so active here: it's refreshing to see someone work so directly with people on something on PBE!
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My pleasure! And to you and everybody else here, thanks for your interest in participating in our PBE and helping to make our game better!
higher CDR = more spells = more damage. Its a numbers game. with 40% CDR both her Q and E have 2.4 second cooldowns. If you build 10% and get the 30% from her passive you can use the rest to buy more AP which will be buffed by your internal deathcap passive.
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Yeah, this. Though E is on a 5 second base CD, Q is on 4, but close enough! I posted more thoughts below, meant to post them here, sorry about that.
Thanks for the feedback on the skins/faces. I'll pass this along to the character artists and see what they think.
That passive feels unwieldy as all hell. It seems like a bonetooth necklace, but as a passive instead of a trinket? It also seems really arbitrary. At least it's not another double passive like Yasuo or whatever the hell Azir has. I don't have any real problems about the rest of the build apart from maybe the reduction in damage from her Q. I really enjoyed using well placed Q's to screw over the enemy, as opposed to 'E-E-E-E-E-E I'm skilled!' So having it focused on spamming one spell on the keyboard is kinda annoying. Also, are you going to do something about Cass scripters? It makes me really annoyed that they exist.
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How do you mean unwieldly? You're probably right, to be clear, but I'd like to hear a bit more about it. It's certainly loaded; lotttssss of mechanics and numbers and stuff. The numbers definitely *seem* arbitrary, I'm with you there. I assure you, however, that some thought went into them ;D. They are mostly targeted at approximate game times (i.e. breakpoint 1 should be hit some time in the early/mid laning phase, whereas breakpoint 3 should be hit quite a ways into late game, ideally ~30 min +). But, this all will require lots of tuning. The intent here is not to de-emphasize her other abilities-- it's to de-emphasize the *damage* on her other abilities. Hitting Q's is intended to be just important as before, if not more so, just not for damage reasons. I touched a little bit on scripters in another post, but, basically we are aware that they exist and are investigating. I can't say much more about this because it's not my area of expertise, sorry :<
It just seems overcomplicated and overdesigned. Like, to use an example that I have heard a Rioter comment about, Yasuo's double passive helps give him a measure of defense and some sort of steroid that he needs to do the damage, both of which are needed as the melee carry they were trying to make him, but it still bothers me to look at his passive tooltip and see two completely unrelated things next to each other. Cass' new passive does three things: gives her a measure of lifesteal (spellvamp, technically), reduces the downtime on her 'autoattack' and gives her a bunch of damage. I'm not saying that giving her these things is bad, but A) having them all on one ability feels really weird, and B) it's not making her change anything about her gameplay. Maybe the lifesteal on E lets her be more aggressive, and the 30% CDR opens up some item builds, but unlocking them doesn't require Cass to do anything but last hit and harass, something any decent player does already. At least the current passive has some measure of gameplay in keeping the aggression on the enemy and also allows for buying, say, a Tear instead of a chalice. Also, just giving someone 30% CDR raises my 'WTF" alarms. I get that Cass isn't exactly a burst caster who needs the CDR to kill things but it's really hard to look at 'this champ gets 3/4s of the CDR she ever needs for free!' and not react badly. I also much preferred landing a Q and watching the enemy's health tick down. I just REALLY like DoTs and I'm kinda annoyed that this rework seems to be shifting a lot of her damage potential away from the DoTs that attracted me to the champ in the first place.
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Yeah, I agree that the passive complexity is a cost. I also totally agree with your observation that having all of these things on one ability feels weird, and that they really just reinforce things that champions tend to do anyway, without adding any dramatically new objectives. But, it does offer a few cool things, hopefully to make up for this cost: - Cassiopeia noticeably changes in power at discrete points in the game in ways other champions do not. A Cassiopeia player will (or should, if we're doing it right) *feel* her champion evolve several times over the course of the game, until she ascends into her final form! We think this feeling offers something valuable to the game, and hopefully is worth the complexity. - It allows us to smoothly craft Cassiopeia's power curve, which is an important aspect of champs that are meant to be carries. - The passive might be redundant in a lot of ways, but this carries with it the benefit of teaching players the poison->twin fang pattern, as well as making the otherwise normal actions feel like they're really helping you build towards a powerful end goal. Though, if done poorly, this second part can feel more like a chore than a benefit, so, we'll be monitoring that for sure. I'm not saying that all these things are manifested in the current iteration, but they are the plan for the kit, and I believe that we'll be able to get here there.
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PBE seems to be back up. Yayyyyyy!
Another concern for me personally... I really loved playing Cass-support (+jungle from time to time), but she really relayed on her high base-dmg for the most part + the new passive seems to make her absolutely unviable in anything but a solo-lane. Do you not wish for her to be able to perform on multiple roles? I think it always takes sth away from the game if Champs get forced too much in one role/lane.
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So, I'd be very surprised if this version of Cassiopeia could function in the jungle. As for support, her passive is actually most effectively stacked against damaging enemy champions, *not when farming minions.* The minion/monster killing part of it only exists as something for her to fall back on when there are no champions around. I suspect she can function pretty well in a duo lane. The problem with support Cassio using her passive as an alternate scaling mechanism (instead of gold, say) is that her passive scales really well with gold-- it doesn't give flat AP, but percentage. That said, it might still be very good if you can fit some AP into your support Cassio build! I encourage you to experiment! Please let me know your findings :3
I have to admit...i kinda like it, especially the new passive. But I´m also very worried about her being focusing on her e only for dmg...right now she´s very viable, but relies a lot on harrassing/cnontrolling with her q+w in fights and only nuking targets that overstep or solo-chase her with her e. So I fear it might get too easy to just focus her down if she´s too dependant on her e for dmg...kinda like a vayne without tumble . Edit: also...I think the Miasma-slwo on rank 1 might be a bit low to feel good. You totally cannot max it early, except you plan on a morgana-esk (very boring) laning-phase...but with 15% it won´t feel any good for the forst 30min of the game in teamfights, especially with lowered dmg on top.
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You might be right about the miasma slow, since that ability is likely to be maxed last. Good point! I don't know how I let that one slip by us, I'll look into it.
I mean...i can understand that you struggle with making skilling the ability somewhat make someone feel like the spell gets stronger per point - but i guess it´s really a case where it´s ok to offer most utility of the spell with just one point. Or maybe try a version in which the cooldown goes down while maxing it, the current version with 100%uptime has some big merrits in teamfights, especially if you run her with some cdr (really love rushing chalice on her) and can relocate your pool of death along with the fight constantly...teh new version will just get jumped/stepped/dashed over with all the mobility chasing after Cassio.
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Yeah there's a lot to consider here, I have generally similar thoughts. This will certainly be a point of iteration.
The zoning potential on Miasma is being crushed, I really think this might affect her reliability more than anticipated because at a high level the W poison really is more reliable. Against a champion like lee sin, most of your fights start by throwing a w, hitting two fangs, then going for a Q, or just positioning in your W and trying to win from there. With Miasma's duration staying at 7s but going to a 15s cool down from 7s currently (which allows you to have a miasma indefinitely with only one point in the skill) don't you think his is a HUGE nerf to her reliability against higher mobility opponents? Yasuo/Lee sin types I feel are going to have even more dominance over her than currently if she can't have her miasma to stand in constantly. Also, this massively nerfs her sieging and takes her wave clear down from the Anivia/Ziggs tier, which I believe is a huge part of what allows her to stall out games a lot of the time. As a late game champion, having god-tier wave clear, I always felt was a huge part of that. Lower ap ratios on the poisons and the crippled miasma uptime are definitely going to affect this.
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Very insightful thoughts here. W CD will come down because of her 30% CDR on the passive, but your point still stands. I intend Miasma still to be a threatening zone, as it primes Cassio for E, but I also think it's okay if highly mobile assassin type champions are strong against Cassiopeia, or if she depends more on her ult against them. And yeah, her siegeing has been significantly nerfed. Waveclear mage didn't seem like the appropriate role for a carry, so this was an intended directional change. She'll still have notable aoe waveclear, and if she can get in E range of the minions as they're sitting in poison, she'll have no trouble chewing down waves. I think it's probably for the best that Anivia/Ziggs keep their siege roles while Cassio moves towards a more unique one. The point about wave clear allowing her access to the late game through stalling is a good one, we'll see how well she can make it without it. It might be okay if she depends on her team a little here, as that's the nature of carries. But, we'll be monitoring this, for sure. Thanks for your thoughts!
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Damage nerfed tooooooo mych for what she gets. The speed on Q is buffed only for late game The AP ration of Twin fang is nerfed early and has only 0.05 more for late,but whe loses 40 flat damage The slow is buffed only for late game The ultimate has got a huge nerf on damage for only 10s CD Many and big nerfs for early game vs few and weak buffs just for late game I still have to check her passive but i hope it's something very powerful or this is a HUGE nerf to a champion that didn't need it.
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I can definitely see how it reads like that, but I encourage you to reserve judgement until you can play around with the usability changes to her E-- It's my feeling that they make a bigggg difference in her damage potential. But, I hear you. We may have over-nerfed the numbers here. I'd like to highlight that these changes are an early pass, and are likely to be tweaked as this proceeds. As she spends more time on the PBE, we'll learn much about the impact of these number changes and act accordingly. Thanks for your response!
After having tried this out in a bot game, i have to say this feels awesome. The passive is cool, gives you thresholds to build up to and a little mini game you have to play along with everything else. The little ring indicators are cool so the opponent knows how far you are and the explosion thing on thresholds reached is cool. However, when i died and purchased elixirs the rings disappeared. Not sure what exact cause is, need to test it out. Each unlock feels useful and can be obtained reasonably well at the points in the game where they are most needed, but the 30% cdr feels awkward with blue, certain items, and certain rune and mastery setups. The heal on E was nice and in combo with the mana back gave a lot of sustain. The percent AP bonus allowed me to cap over 1000 AP at max build plus elixir! Q still feels good to weave in to combos to keep E going and harass with in lane. Reminds me of karthus Q, as you can clip a low health minion while hitting your lane opponent for a clean 4 stacks, harass, and a cs. W for me has lost some of its zoning power, but I thought it was to strong in that regard before anyways so I don't mind. It's slow at later ranks is awesome for chasing or kiting. Also, dropping this on a whole wave or the whole enemy team in a team fight is pure passive value. :D E feels much smoother. I can reliably figure how many Q's I can get in and the mana return mechanic is so huge for stacking tear or sustaining up on waves or jungle camps before or after a fight. R feels much the same. I haven't played enough to say if it feels more reliable, but so far it hasn't fundamentally changed for me. Anyways those are my initial thoughts, I'll be sure to try out some different builds and such to get a feel for her scaling and play her against some humans for a more realistic experience.
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Thank you for sharing your experience here, and in some good detail as well! Definitely looking into the awkwardness of the CDR number. The rings disappearing is known, and I have a fix ready for that in the next build. Thanks again!
Played a game with her. For some quick background, I'm a Cass main and primarily a Dominion player. These are my initial impressions/feedback. * **Bigger emphasis on Strengths/Weaknesses.** I feel by balancing more of her power into her E, you're heavily punishing players that can't reliably land her Q. I felt her old kit was punishing enough which kept most players away. * **Free CDR.** I know everyone is jumping for joy with this, but if you were a Cass main, you'd already know that CDR is basically useless on her. Her Q cooldown is at a low enough value that CDR doesn't really do much for it. Her ult is up basically every teamfight with or without CDR. The only thing it really helps is her W and hey, it was nerfed too. * **Nerfed Q** Now that you gutted her Q, Twin Fangs is now her ~~main~~ only source of DPS. One thing I really liked about Cass was that she was sort of LoL's DoT (Damage over Time) class. It felt good to watch your poison slowly whittle your targets down and being able to go in for the kill with Twin Fangs. Now, your poison basically does nothing and essentially serves just as a setup for your Twin Fangs. Q is also noticeably harder to land now. More than ever, Cassiopeia is now a glorified AP mage version of Urgot in terms of DPS setup. * **More power. Same problems** This kind of ties into what I said earlier. You made her damage potential stronger and her weaknesses greater. Sure, you probably think you offset it a bit by buffing the speed bonus on her Q and the slow on her W, but that means very little. Cass's problem has always been once an enemy gets on top of her, she's essentially dead. Once a Yasuo, Ahri, Kha'Zix, etc. gets in your face you can only do one thing: Try to kill them before they kill you. Movespeed is useless when everyone has some type of slow that cripples you and your own slow is best used pre-preemptively, not when the enemy is already on top of you. This isn't even factoring in the threat of gap closers. Obviously, she shouldn't have a guaranteed escape in these type of situations as her damage potential is too high for that. However, I feel Cass's kit is far too interesting to be relegated towards "Protect the Kog" style comps. It would be great if she could occupy a middle ground. Not as team reliant as say a Kog Maw or Vel'Koz, but she shouldn't be able to fend for herself as well as a Zed, Ziggs, or Orianna. Maybe, she already occupies that space. I don't know, I'll have to test more. In one dominion bot game, I was able to get about 170 stacks in 12mins. I'm not sure if it will need to be adjusted for live or not as there are not enough Dominion players on the PBE to test with, but I think it will be very hard to reach 375 stacks in a Dominion game against actual human players. I still need to do a lot more testing on her mana usage and testing in general but I'm assuming I'm still going to be building an Athene's every game for the mana regen and the MR to help against enemy mages. How effective E is over her old passive for mana sustainability will heavily influence her itemization paths. I feel pre-rework Cass was more fun to play because: * **Her power was distributed throughout all her abilities.** E was her main source of damage and Q was needed for the setup, but landing all her abilities in general felt more rewarding. I didn't feel like I absolutely had to land and time all her E's perfectly to kill a target like I have to do now. * **Being a lane bully is fun.** It is. * **Thematically, it felt great to whittle your targets down with your poison abilities.** I'm not saying that's not possible anymore, but the emphasis has definitely been placed on Twin Fang burst. In summary, I may sound harsh and probably exaggerated a bit because **I'm just nitpicking.** She seems to play pretty much the same, if only a bit harder to use because of the increased delay on her Q. I assume this is one of the trade-offs for giving her more power. The free CDR should ease the pain a bit. This was my **one game Dominion** impressions/feedback.
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Hello! Thanks for taking the time to write this up. A few of my thoughts: - You're probably right about making landing Q's more important, relatively, and thus making the miss case more punishing. I hadn't considered this enough, but hopefully this is tempered by the E reliability changes. In general, though, we think it's okay if Cassiopeia simply has a high mastery requirement, as that can lead to very rewarding experiences. - I agree that all the free CDR probably sounds better than it actually is, and this isn't great. However, it *does* provide cassiopeia with some some useful padding on her E in the case that she mistimes it, as well as more opportunities to access her MS on Q. It definitely does things for her, but not as much as it would on other champions. - I do worry that she ends up feeling like every other hyper carry without a jump/dash/blink, like Kog for example. However, the strengths and weaknesses you outlined tend to be the nature of this type of champion. That said, I hope that the utility buffs, self-peel ultimate, and life on hit will allow her a little room to breath in fights and be less binary than similar characters. - As a general rule, she is not in a well balanced state. This becomes particularly noticeable on maps other than SR. We are aware of this, and we'll be looking into alternate map solutions. - I hear your concerns about poison in general, and I hope we can get them into a good enough place where they don't need the same damage they had before to feel powerful. I hope we added back some satisfaction to poison ticking in the form of her buff counter ticking up while her poisons tick down. I'm very interested to see how people react to this. I really appreciate you framing your post with that last paragraph. Thanks again for the time you spent on this! I'd love to hear more from you as you play more games on Cassiopeia.
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Hey guys! Thanks for all the feedback so far, I'll be taking a break from posting here for a bit. I might be on later tonight, but, if not, then definitely tomorrow. Thanks again for offering your thoughts here, and I'd love to hear more about your experiences with Cassiopeia on the PBE. Cheers!
OH A BUG [Gameplay bug] When Cass poisons more than one champ with Q, she only gains 3 stacks instead of 3 times the number of opponents hit. This is a SERIOUS Drawback as it reduces her Passive stacks in teamfights and greatly slows down her passive gain.
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Working as intended :p. She gets a stack for every second that one or more enemy champions are poisoned. We should be clearer about this in the tooltip. It works this way so that she stacks her passive at a more stable rate throughout the game, and so that she's not countered by avoiding teamfights, which would be pretty lame.
Another area you might want to look at for Twin Fang reliability is the indicator for when units are poisoned. The current indivator is servicable in lane, but in teamfights it can sometimes get a bit lost. Due to the heightened emphasis on Twin Fang for damage, Cassiopeia players *need* to be able to know if their target is poisoned or not, whether a champion actually stepped in the Miasma or just barely avoided it. An update to that particle could go a long way towards helping reliability. The 30% CDR feels a bit strange. I seem to remember some other designers talking in the past about how they generally don't like to add CDR directly into a kit and would rather reduce cooldowns directly if they needed to be lower (I believe this was said talking about changes to Zyra and Heimerdinger), and here we have the highest passive value ever added to a champion's kit. The exact value is kind of odd as well, since with her kit players are almost certainly going to opt for 5% CDR in the offensive masteries since there isn't really an alternative. So players either have to build no CDR and end up at 35%, get 5% CDR in runes at the expense of using those runes slots in other ways, or buy items, granting a minimum of 10% CDR each, and wasting the excess. I'm also worried that her mana costs might be too high without her old passive. In the one game I have played her so far on the PBE, I decided to build tear pre-emptively and didn't struggle with that item, but it seems she could easily run out spamming 90-mana Twin Fangs in an extended teamfight with just her base mana pool. Something to watch. The AP ratio nerf on Noxious Blast also seems a bit over-the-top. Even factoring in the increased AP gain from the new passive, you are losing tons of damage on this skill, significantly reducing her poke game. Combined with the Miasma damage nerf, it now seems that if she can't get in to Twin Fang repeatedly, she isn't capable of dealing out much damage. I'm worried that she might be too reliant on the inherently risky Twin Fang DPS now and lacks enough fallback mechanisms in situations where she can't safely Twin Fang. This all may seem a bit critical, so I just wanted to say overall I like the changes and am excited for them to hit live. I just want to make sure the Cass we get is the best one she can be!
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Your first point is right on the money. We've been brainstorming on ways to improve this, and haven't met great success with out attempts so far. Definitely on out radar though. The CDR in this kit works a little differently, as it all comes at once at a certain point in the game, which functions as an instant, noticeable change to the character. Having flat CDR at all times or CDR tied to an ability rank up fits more into the design concerns which you've highlighted. That said, there's still a lot to what you're saying, and we'll likely be moving on some of this. As for other number concerns, keep in mind that current numbers are all works in progress :) We definitely aim to make Cassiopeia a viable choice after these changes, so we'll be playing around with these for a while. Thanks for the feedback and for helping to improve Cassiopeia :D
I've namely played casseopia when she's been free and have always been stuck between being good and great. With this new play style, i have gotten significantly better in playing her, doing much better at laneing and fighting opponents. A couple of things however, if you're making the new kit with the intent of being E reliant, i feel as though you should provide an extra indicator for when it will go on its insta-cooldown, or make the poison particle (in general) stand out better. For the sake of (wait for it....) Clarity! Also, with the e being the focus, poison comps could become major meta threats, with Cass becoming one of those always pick or banned, with then twitch/teemo/singed always being paired with her. Heavily favoring her team in mid-late game, and even early game once Cass has a tear of the goddess.
Except, Cass E reset doesn't proc off of twitch poison, I don't think.
It turns out that Cass E DOES proc off of Twitch poison even though it doesn't have the same poison particle as Singed Twitch and Cass.
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Yeah it's had some other even funkier stuff happening in the past, like procing off Darius's passive. Right now we'll continue to support the poison from allies thing, and adjust if it turns out to be problematic.
One of the best Cassiopea's players posted that on reddit you rly should read that : http://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/2esb0o/reaction_about_cassios_rework_from_a_challenger/
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Thanks! I read it last night. He raises some valuable points, but generally his concerns are targeted at numbers. Numbers are all up for grabs at the moment, and are all likely to be changed. We'd love to hear more feedback about the directional and feelsy changes, though numbers stuff is definitely still helpful.
A friend of mine analyzed the whole changes and came to the result that this is an overall nerf and turns down her powerlevel quite a bit except ultra lategame maybe. I'm by far no game designer but he did the math and compared the new and live values ; Maybe its somehow useful to you: http://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/2es9c4/a_detailed_look_on_the_upcoming_cassiopeia_changes/
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Thanks for bringing this to my attention! And I'd like to thank your friend for his work on this analysis. However, I'd also like to stress that **this is not intended to be a nerf.** Again, number's are all temporary. We'll change ratios and bases accordingly until Cassiopeia is in a good spot. Thanks again!
Not a fan of the VU on Desperada cass, there's a definate lack of detail in the update, compared to old, the new hat is CRAZY plain, compared to the beauty of the old one. The tail , I knew there was something off just by looking at it, and seeing it side by side on surrender@20 it literally jumps out at you. So what I would ask/suggest/beg/demand is that : A. The old hat needs to come back, new one is just ugly plain B. The banding on the old tail is much closer to a rattlesnake (I've killed a few IRL) than the new one , new one is much closer to a copperhead's colors/markings and is just flat bland, in fact most of the tails are bland (Siren's doesn't even look like scales compared to the old, though the markings/colors are much closer than Desperada Cass) C. The boustierre (spelling) on Desperada is also less detailed than the old one (Mythic and Desperada are my 2 favorite skins of hers, so I'm kind of touchy about this, and Desperada was the only skin I had bought for her till Mythic). D. Even the base skin's original tail texture stands out more than the VU In conclusion it's hard to call these a visual "UPDATE" if they are in fact less detailed than the original, it's kind of like if you drew a stick figure with her arms crossed and called her a "VISUAL UPDATE" over the mona lisa , nobody would buy that.
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I'll pass this along, thanks for your feedback!
I like the changes on the passive but i think 30% cooldown are 2 much u could change that to 20% or 25% because 30% CD are (nearly) two CD Items.
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Trying out a 25% version for tomorrow!
Hi, i'd like to report a bug, i don't know if it was only in this game or whatever, but the texture of cassiopeia's W was invisible, the poison and the slow were effective but we couldn't see where it was. Game mode: Ascension Character: Cassiopeia Skin: Mythic Cassiopeia I'd like to say also that the 30% CDR on her passive with 150 stacks are a bit over powered, maybe reduce it or get it with more stacks? Thanks to have read the comment.
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Thanks! Fix for this should be in later today, I'll keep monitoring it, though.
Hi, I wanted to leave my thoughts on this rework - bear in mind I have not yet gotten to try out the rework, so my comments are just coming from a theoretical viewpoint and I'll try to keep perspective. I will come back and add more as I get an opportunity to try it out. I consider Cassiopeia my main, and have for the past 2 and a half years. First and foremost, my biggest objection to this kit change is the strong emphasis not only on her twin fang, but specifically AWAY from her poison. Personally, I don't think making twin fang stronger makes up for her poison being weaker - from a numbers perspective, sure, but it disregards her theme completely. Cassiopeia is the definitive "poison" themed champion. It just doesn't make a great deal of sense, thematically, that her new kit should use poison primarily as a utility rather than damage. Cassiopeia has always been a very risk/reward champ - she has very specific counters. Namely, burst. This has become even more pronounced as mobility creep has continued to be such a factor. With every new champ to the league featuring dashes and other *instant* forms of mobility, Cassiopeia's move speed utility has weakened in effectiveness. I believe that Cassiopeia's skill floor has actually increased over time as a result of this. Unfortunately, I see nothing in this kit rework which addresses her mobility difficulties, apart from an increase in slow with her W(which, since the damage on it is so low, will not be a priority skill, thus not fixing anything until late game, by which point her opportunities for kiting are reduced dramatically). As a huge Cassiopeia fan(She has been my favorite champion for years now, we should celebrate an anniversary) I can attest that the most fun aspect of playing her is the "Fist of the North Star" effect. The most satisfying feeling when playing Cassiopeia is landing a clever set of poison attacks as an opponent tries to escape, and watching them tick down to death without knowing they were already doomed. I am afraid that with this setup she is TOO dependent on her twin fang. The increased cast time of her Q will, I suspect, make it much harder to hit opponents reliably. The more a champion relies on a very specific form of play, the weaker and less interesting they become. Finally, the passive. I think this is simply far too strong. Stressing her late game potential isn't a bad thing, but I think it could be done in more creative ways which aren't restrictive to her build paths. Perhaps her weakened poison could be mitigated through the passive? Could her poison travel to enemies near the poisoned foe? Could it degrade their defensive stats? Or perhaps her passive could do something to mitigate her weakness to bursty opponents - something about her daunting gaze causing slowed attack speeds/skills for opponents that strike her? What can be done for her thematically which is more potent than simply naming a passive "Aspect of the Snake"? Especially since the passive itself doesn't seem to have anything to do with snakes. Can her poison spawn little snakes that attack the nearest enemy for a small amount and then disappear? When she kills an opponent, will a bunch of these snakes burst out of them(There's a snake in my boot!)? I don't want you to get the impression that I'm simply against change. Every champ changes and I fully embrace that evolution - I've always known Cassiopeia would be changing over time. I'm simply very anxious to see that this change doesn't bring her too far from her theme and feel. A "tune up" is a great thing, and I applaud the increase in reliability... but I must stress that the (frankly)huge shift in power from her poison to her twin fangs... I think is, as a concept, dubious at best. To summarize, I think her changes should be thematically fitting and feature strong poison. Again, I'll have to get in for some hands-on to get a better opinion of how much this change affects her in both positive and negative ways. Regardless, I think these concerns are valid as they address the stylistic changes.
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Thanks for your thoughts! I'm really excited for you to get your hands on her, and I hope that you share your thoughts about your experience after you do. Some questions for you, and everyone else who's willing to share: - Does the increased delay on Q actually change her effectiveness over the course of the game? I'm comfortable reverting this change, so I'd like to see what people think about it. It's a very minor increase, but I can see how it would have a large impact. - Does the focus on her E actually make her feel like less of a poison mage? Now her passive depends on poisoning things, the whole success of the character depends on her ability to manage her poisons properly :< I could see your point being the case though, despite this. I'd love to hear more about this as people get more games on her. - Are her 'mobility difficulties' an inappropriate problem on this champion? That is, do you feel you have the tools to outplay people with high mobility? My thinking is generally, "Okay, the (high mobility burst champ) has an edge on me, but if I land my ultimate, I'll be able to kill them before they kill me" Or something like this. Thanks again!
Well, I just gave it a try. Initial impressions: - Kit change overall feels more buff than nerf, from a damage perspective. Strongly so. Would likely need to be toned down prior to live? - Changes to her farm allow her to "super farm" if she concentrates, but this makes farming more difficult, risky, and requires a lot of concentration - effectively raising her skill requirements. - I had no miasma particles (was using mythic skin) - is this a known bug? I actually only noticed partway through the game, so it's possible they were there originally and disappeared. - The new AA particles are better than throwing snakes, but the bright blue projectile is kind of weird and doesn't contribute to her theme very much. - Her overall play style seems the same, but more repetitive than before. Engaging is no longer throwing everything at the enemy as soon as it comes off cooldown, it's just throwing as many Es at the enemy while they are poisoned as you can. This often leaves Q as the final attack you have available as an enemy exits your range (if they are able to escape), and it rarely manages to finish them. - W is just underwhelming. The slow is better, but all Cassiopeia ever needed was enough of a slow to land her Q reliably, speed her up, and give her the movement advantage over her prey. The damage now just seems to make it hardly worth using other than to slow opponents. It doesnt scare as much as before, so I'm unsure of how effective it will be for zoning. To answer your questions: - In practice I've found the delay on her Q to not be of much consequence. It doesn't really feel harder to hit with, but it doesn't feel much better synced either... I'm wondering what the point of it was? - I understand where you're coming from, but it seems like forcing her to depend on proper management of poisons only increases the difficulty of a champion already known for her high difficulty. After trying her, I still feel the "poison mage" theme, but her poison has a disappointingly low impact. There isn't a reliable strategy to use your poison to kill an enemy rather than your E. Poison feels like it is relegated to the farming aspect of the game, and facilitating your *real* attacks against champions. - Mobility is beginning to be an inappropriate problem for any champion who doesn't have it. It isn't that Cassiopeia doesn't *have* the tools to outplay a mobile, bursty champ - it's more that her tools are very insufficient, especially with the way such champs are built. For instance, many champs with jumps and dashes end up behind their target - many have their jump/dash as a targeted skill as opposed to a skillshot, and will reach their range at the same time Cassiopeia's ult would hit them at max range. So Cassiopeia has to have an exceptional level of skill to counter their jump. Many of these mobile, bursty champs aren't in Cassiopeia's lane, and she isn't considered a strong counterpick to anyone. This has a very negative effect on her popularity. If you're on top of Cass, behind Cass, or even right in front of Cass but slightly to the side, her ult is a worthless tool against you. It doesn't really feel that way, though, so very often Cass players will flub an ult trying to get out of a bad situation. It's very powerful but inconsistent. And unfortunately, it's her only defense against a mobile burst champ. Most Cassiopeia players have to rely very heavily on flash as an escape from such situations - if her opponent has it too, all is lost. Counterpicks to Cassiopeia are pretty varied and highly effective - they are HARD counters. They include Fizz, LeBlanc, Akali, Talon, Diana. Much of Cassiopeia's difficulty and unpopularity come from her mobility weaknesses, and it's not just a 1v1 thing - in the jungle, she cant get over walls without burning flash. If towerdived, she cannot escape. This also hurts the team if her team mates are highly mobile - because she can't keep up.
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Wow, thanks for the amount of thought you put into this! I won't write an extensive response here, but please trust me that your feedback is very valuable to us and super useful. But, a few things: If the Q delay change isn't better synced with the particle and it's not changing gameplay, then it's probably not worth putting in. I'll continue to look into this. Also, we'll get a fix in for the miasma asap. About mobility: I see Cassio perhaps functioning similarly to Ashe and Sivir in terms of survivability, or some mix of the two. She doesn't have all of their tools (mega super MS steroid, spell shield, constant slow, etc) but she has very similar ones of her own. She struggles in some situations, but, like these champions, has situations in which she thrives as well, or can outplay opponents even at a disadvantage. With all that said, I'm currently working on slight tweak to her ultimate where it gives her a little more padding closer to her body. This should result in a significantly more reliable self peel tool, but I think it's appropriate in this case. Thanks again!
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