[Planned - 6.9] Mana x MP/5 x AP x MR Item Pass [Updated - 4/11/2016]

**PBE Deployment Update:** As this is monday, these changes are no longer on the PBE. **Note:** Also apologies. I am **severely** outnumbered versus number of comments here. While I normally make it a part of my posting style to reply to every post in the main thread - I don't think that's feasible for me this time. Sorry guys. **Update - 4/11:** Some items have been updated based on feedback from this thread. A quick recap: Morello has more AP and has Athene's Kill passive. Hextech Rocket Belt has had its speed reduced and has a slight after-dash delay where you can't use your spells (0.25 seconds). Some minor stats have been adjusted and Catalyst has had its numbers altered. CD on Hextech items have increased by 10 seconds. **6.9 Core Mana, Regen, AP and MR Pass** We're likely going to be pushing within 1 or 2 days onto PBE a set of major item changes intended to be part of the Midseason patch that is primarily focused around Mages. As always - I want to give you guys a full list of details with a bit of context before these items hit the PBE and get data mined. There are a couple of major points here that I want to hit upon - and we're being pretty aggressive about the item space we're exploring here. **Note:** None of the numbers are final here and functionality and specific details will change as we iterate and get closer to shipping the patch note. We're still in a change of heavy numbers iteration of most of these items. **Mana, Mages, MP/5, Supports** First off, I'm changing a vast majority of the Mana components in the game in purpose and function. Overall, our mana items that have been tailored towards mages have been mostly about providing Mana - rather than being a Mana item with some kind of useful statline. {{item:3057}}, for instance, is a Mana item which provides a useful passive. Our current Mana + Spellcaster mana components just provide Mana and don't really solve anything else - making any mage that needs to buy a Mana item simply lacking in some early functionality or stat pattern. We also want to do some work here to ensure that offensive mage items tend to have maximum Mana on them - while supportive items tend to have mana regeneration on them - this is both from a game health concern (Infinite Poke) as well as a push to have mages be comfortable burning through tons of mana on powerful spells rather than rely on a steady drip of attrition. {{item:3010}} Catalyst ~~the Protector~~ of Aeons * **Valor's Reward passive removed** * **New Passive - Eternity:** 15% of damage taken from champion is gained as Mana. 20% of Mana spent is gained as Health. * (Healing limited to ~~25~~ 15 per spell cast or ~~25~~ 15 per second for toggled spells.)* Catalyst loses quite a bit of free early lane pressure here - however, it enables a very powerful engine - turning mana to health and health to mana while brawling with other champions. **Update:** Any upgrades to Catalyst will also upgrade the Eternity Passive. Rod of Ages, Hextech GLP-426 and Righteous Glory will all have an upgraded form of the Eternity Passive: * *Healing*: 25% of spell mana cost, up to 25 Healing per spell cast or 25 / sec from toggled spells. {{item:3070}} Tear of the Goddess * **Mana Regeneration:** 25% --> 0% * Additional Passive - **Awe**: Refunds 25% of Mana spent Tear of the Goddess has always been the go to spot for a ludicrous mana pool. However, paradoxically - it also favors very low cost spells in order to stack it up. This iteration swaps out the minor regeneration for a very powerful effective mana cost reduction for truly painful spells. The Awe passive is kept on every Tear of the Goddess upgrade. Because the mana is refunded - Catalyst's passive will still act at full power. {{item:3028}} Chalice of Harmony * Passive remade: Increases your Health Regeneration by 100% if your Health % is lower than your Mana %. Increases your Mana Regeneration by 100% if your Mana % is lower than your Health %. * **Mikael's Crucible and Athene's Unholy Grail gain this passive instead of Mana Font** One of the relationships I want to break up with this pass is the attachment of Flat Mana to Mana Regeneration. Additionally, we're going to siphon some of the sustain out of bot lane in 6.9 and thus introducing a fairly powerful option to solve whatever sustain that you need early on. {{item:1052}} {{item:1027}} **Lost Chapter (NEW)** * **Recipe:** Sapphire Crystal + Amplifying Tome + 115 Gold = 900 Total Gold * 25 Ability Power * 250 Mana * Unique Passive: Upon levelling up, restores 20% of your maximum mana over 3 seconds. Catalyst is a decent item to support brawlers but the old passive had its merits in sustaining an aggression pattern in lane. This additional item is intended to support very aggressive lane patterns by providing some of the old pressure patterns that Catalyst enabled while still fulfilling a mage's primary damage line. {{item:3165}} **Morellonomnomnomnomicon? Or Athene's? The Cycle Continues** {{item:3174}} When talking about Mana items - this has been a long running cycle. Morellonomicon and Athene's Unholy Grail have had identity profiles way too close to each other for too long. We want to aggressively push Mana items to bind to offensive play patterns - and Mana Regeneration effects to bind to more team centric patterns. Athene's Unholy Grail has been remade to convert Mage / Support hybrid play patterns into specializing towards helping their team more. {{item:3165}} **Morellonomicon** * **Recipe Change:** Lost Chapter + Fiendish Codex + Amplifying Tome + 515 Gold = 2750 Total Gold * **Ability Power:** 80 --> ~~80~~ 100 * **Mana Regeneration:** 100% --> 0% * **Flat Mana:** 0 --> 400 * **Cooldown Reduction:** 20% --> 20% (Unchanged) * **Loses Lost Chapter Passive** * **Grievous Wounds Passive**: Health threshold lowered to 35% from 40%. Grievous Wounds duration increased to 8 seconds from 5. * **New Passive:** Kills and Assists restore 20% of your maximum Mana. Morellonomicon has been changed to build out of Lost Chapter - heavy AP, flat mana, flat CDR. An interesting facet of this change is that Archangel's Staff and Morellonomicon form a very aggressive pairing of Mana, AP and CDR fueling each other. **Update Notes:** From PBE - upgrading Morello seems to be a major pain point - that and the lack of Athene's kill passive seems to cause a number of high risk patterns to break down. As Morello has always been about ensuring kills with the passive - Trying out an iteration where the item is very aggressive compared to before - and has the old Athene's murder passive. {{item:3174}} **Athene's Unholy Grail** * **Recipe Change:** Chalice + Fiendish Codex + 300 Gold = 2100 Total Gold * **Total Cost:** 2700 --> 2100 * **Ability Power:** 60 --> 40 * **Mana Regeneration:** 100% --> 75% * **Magic Resistance:** 25 --> 25 (Unchanged) * **Cooldown Reduction:** 20% --> 20% (Unchanged) * **Mana Passive:** Mana Passives on Kill or Assist have been removed. * **New Passive:** Gain 15% of premitigation damage dealt to champions as Blood charges, up to 100 to 270 (based on level). Healing or shielding another ally consumes Blood Charges to heal that ally. Athene's Unholy Grail grants shield characters that can inflict damage the ability to heal their allies. Janna, Lulu, Orianna, Morgana, Karma and the like can now spec into an item that grants them additional permanent sustain that is supported by their offensive combat patterns. Heal based supports will still benefit from the additional healing but in practice - it's a bit of tension between stacking a bunch of flat AP or not. The CDR is a nice boost for them though. {{champion:8}} **Spell Vamp** - {{item:3145}} {{item:3152}} We're killing Spell Vamp from the item system. We've been unable to get this statistic to be purchased on anyone but Vladimir and his tuning has always been lockstep with it. None of the Spell Vamp changes made throughout the years have been able to break this stranglehold. Characters with innate Spell Vamp like {{champion:25}} or {{champion:103}} will retain it on their kits as we can actually balance that. {{item:3146}} **Hextech Gunblade** will keep it's "Omnivamp" passive - as it is seeing good use as being an effective life steal and spell vamp item for hybrid centric playstyles. Runes and Keystone choices will also retain the ability to acquire Spell Vamp. **Note:** {{champion:8}} will have a major update in the same patch and has been tuned around the lack of Spell Vamp in the item system. {{item:3152}} **Will of the Ancients** * Removed from the game. **"Hextech"** We're introducing / shuffling around a new family of items called 'Hextech.' These are **very** powerful active spell effects on a very short cooldown that add a great deal of magic damage and are primarily magic damage aligned. {{item:3145}} **Hextech Revolver** * **Combine Cost:** 340 --> 230 * **Total Cost:** 1200 --> 1050 * Ability Power unchanged * Spell Vamp removed * **New Passive - Magic Bolt:** Your basic attacks deal **75 - 150** magic damage on hit. (30 second cooldown, shared with other **Hextech** items). Revolver has always been a item that encourages favorable trading in lane. This keeps some of that aspect in a far more aggressive manner that's hopefully a bit more ubiquitously useful than checking to see if you can sustain off a resourceless single target spell. {{item:3146}} **Hextech Gunblade** * **Total Cost:** Unchanged * **"Omni-Vamp" passive:** Unchanged * **Active Damage:** 150 --> 300 * **Active AP Damage Ratio:** 0.4 --> 0.3 * Active now **instantaneously** shoots a lightning bolt with **zero** travel time, immediately slowing the target for 2 seconds. * Active now shares a cooldown with other **Hextech** Items. Gunblade hasn't changed much with this update - simply strengthening the active while giving it a tie to a lightning thematic. Overall, adoption on the omni-vamp gunblade has been pretty successful - as it serves to be a useful drain item for a wide variety of mixed damage type champions. {{item:3145}} {{item:3067}} **Hextech Protobelt-01** * **Recipe:** Hextech Revolver + Kindlegem + 600 Gold = 2550 Total Gold * **Health:** 300 * **Ability Power:** ~~80~~ 60 * **Cooldown Reduction:** 10% * Active - Fire Bolt: **Dash** 275 units in a direction *(at 1150 speed)* and then unleash a nova of fireballs that deal **100 - 250** (+25% of your Ability Power) magic damage to enemies hit. Enemies hit by more than one fireball take 15% damage from additional balls. (30 second cooldown, shared with other **Hextech** items). * This Dash cannot go over walls. * Has a slight lockout on spellcasting after the dash of about 0.2 seconds - this isn't a true silence - just an animation afterdelay. One of the issues that we've struggled with in a lot of mid-range mages is that many of them essentially brute force their way to victory through raw numbers. They also don't have a ton of ways to opt into more flexible or flashy combat patterns with their core itemization. Hextech Rocket Belt is an extremely dangerous effect that acts as either a range increased for their spells - a burst of initiation power - or simply a quick reposition tool so that these mages can fight in a more clever manner. {{item:3145}} {{item:3010}} **Hextech GLP-426** * Recipe: Catalyst of Aeons + Hextech Revolver + 750 Gold = 3000 Total Gold * **Ability Power:** 80 * **Health:** 300 * **Mana:** 400 * Passive - Shared with Catalyst of Aeons * Active - Ice Bolts: Throw an arc of five piercing icy bolts that explode to deal **100 - 200** (+20% of your Ability Power) as magic damage. Enemies hit are slowed by 60% decaying over 0.5 seconds. (30 second cooldown, shared with other **Hextech** Items) Hextech Frost Cannon shares similar principles here - except targetting more brawler focused or CC focused mid-range mages. It adds light wave clear - can serve to hit confirm spells or aid in kiting opponents. An extremely flexible tool to enable mages to better plan out how they want an encounter to go. {{item:3027}} **Rod of Ages vs. Hextech GLP-07A** {{item:3145}} {{item:3010}} Rod of Ages has kind of lost it's identity ever since the 5.13 Core AP itemization pass. It's kind of a generic super stat-stick right now, providing large quantities of whatever you want. However, with the advent of Hextech GLP-07A and the powerful active effect - we noticed that Rod of Ages lost a lot of its purpose in this new world and thus needed a stronger push in its identity. {{item:3027}} **Rod of Ages** * **Recipe Change:** Catalyst of Aeons + Needlessly Large Rod + 50 Gold * **Total Cost:** 3000 --> 2500 * **Health / Health Scaling:** Unchanged * **Ability Power:** 80 --> 60 * **Ability Power per Stack:** 4 per minute / 40 Max (Unchanged) * **Mana:** 400 --> 300 * **Mana per Stack:** 40 --> 10 This incarnation of Rod of Ages has far less Mana total - and a bit less AP. However, the item itself is all about stacking the passive and how early you can get the ball rolling. It has almost zero combine cost - and thus is all about how quickly you can assemble it to benefit from a 500 Health, 100 AP item 10 minutes from now. *Tick Tock* {{item:3157}} **Magic Cooldown Reduction** {{item:3001}} *Wait a second, neither of those items have cooldown reduction...?* One of the most prevalent concerns we've had in the Mage space is that they are having a great deal of trouble finding sufficient itemization to push them to maximum CDR. This has a wide range of negative effects on the Mage space - from either restricting their pre-game rune setup - to barring sustained damage and kite patterns from working. {{item:3157}} **Zhonya's Hourglass** * **Recipe Change:** Seeker's Armguard + Fiendish Codex + 900 Gold = 3000 Total Gold * **Total Cost:** 3500 --> 3000 * **Ability Power:** 100 --> 70 * **Armor:** Unchanged * **Cooldown Reduction:** 0 --> 10% * **Active Stasis Cooldown:** 90 --> 120 We're moving Zhonya's Hourglass out of the major AP item slot. The combine cost and total cost to which Zhonya's Hourglass would have been balanced at while keeping both the roles of 'Heavy AP' and 'Utility Active' were kind of untenable for most mages. We're shifting Zhonya's to a more utility centric item which is more in line with the spirit of the item. This should help with a couple of things: Zhonya's Dominance as the most popular AP item, enabling characters who truly need Zhonya's to have access to it quicker as well as rounding our your defenses and cooldown reduction. {{item:3001}} **Abyssal Scepter** * **Recipe Change:** Fiendish Codex + Negatron Cloak + Amplifying Tome + 695 Gold = 2750 Total Gold * **Ability Power:** 70 >>> 60 * **Magic Resist:** 50 >>> 60 * **Cooldown Reduction:** 0 >>> 10% * **Aura:** No longer affects minions * **Aura:** Now scales with level. Reduces Magic Resistance of nearby enemy champions from **10 to 25**. We've been unhappy with Abyssal Scepter's place as rush item to effectively win lane. The item simultaneously helped with wave clear, helped bully out your opponent while also providing a generous chunk of AP. Re-positioning Abyssal Scepter to be far more about defending yourself against opposing magical threats while pushing its relevance onto the late-game. We're intending for Abyssal to be very attractive to mages that need an additional layer of defense who are going to scrap in team fight range. **AP/Defense/CDR Cycle** {{item:3145}} {{item:3067}} **Hextech Rocket Belt**, {{item:3157}} **Zhonya's Hourglass** and {{item:3001}} **Abyssal Scepter** are intended to form a cycle of items that grant magic damage, defense, cooldown reduction and a powerful effect that encourages mages to make dangerous plays in the middle of a team fight. These also very pointedly don't have Mana on them - so they can fill out your remaining item slots - or support resourceless mages like some sort of crazed suicidal Kennen rush... or likely probably a more thoughtful Amumu. **Magic Resist Alterations** {{item:3065}} {{item:3102}} With the addition of Maw - the bolstering of MR on Abyssal Scepter - it's also time to look at the two 'heavy' MR items that are intended to form the core of serious magic resistance setups. We want to further push the identities of these items apart from each other. {{item:3211}} **Spectre's Cowl** * **Total Cost:** 1100 >> 1200 * **Health:** 200 >> 250 * **MR:** 35 >> 30 Some slight stat adjustments to support further changes later on down the line. {{item:3102}} **Banshee's Veil** * **Recipe Changed:** Spectre's Cowl + Negatron Cloak + 530 Gold * **Total Cost:** 2900 >> 2450 * **Health:** 500 >> 300 * **MR:** 70 >> 70 (Unchanged) This pushes Veil to be the definitive reactionary purchase against Magic damage teams. A build path that includes **both** a Negatron Cloak and a Spectre's Cowl is a powerful response to facing a magic damage team. However, the final item isn't incredibly slot efficient and so while the option is there in case you need it - it makes for a relatively poor 'capstone' item to make you immune from magic damage after stacking a bunch of Health. {{item:3065}} **Spirit Visage** * **Combine Cost:** 900 >> 800 * Total Cost unchanged * **MR:** 70 >> 55 * **HP Regen:** 150% >> 200% * **Passive Healing:** 20% >> 25% Spirit Visage is always going to be core on some of our drain tanks. Since we're interesting in enhancing many of these characters drain personalities - the presence of a ton of Magic Resistance has proven to be a little unwieldy on Spirit Visage. This pushes Spirit Visage's identity of healing a bit more and also buffs its interactions with Warmog's Armor - in the case that you need to spec into extreme out of combat regeneration. **Note:** There will be a scattering of over item tuning changes in the 6.9 patch. The changes here reflect either major directional changes or just the detail work for this pass. There are a scattering of changes that are intended to generally tone down the level of sustain in the early game that is mostly unrelated to this work. **Disclaimer:** I will only be responding to this thread regarding gameplay feedback on this change. Please keep the discussion centralized to this topic if possible.
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Should we be expecting changes to the Void Staff/Liandry's Torment/Sorcerer's Shoes items as well, or is this the full extent of the itemization changes?
This isn't a comprehensive AP pass - This is mostly about your primary resource item (Mana / MP/5) as well as associated hot button topics (CDR / MR) that comre with it.
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That's fine if you want to remove spellvamp as a stat, but did you factor in Akali when you decided to remove spellvamp off revolver? Unless her rework is coming out with Vlad as well in 6.9, then it's a massive nerf for the current Akali.
Gunblade will still keep Omni-vamp - so her later game vamp needs are going to be okay. As far as Spell Vamp goes - this is a hit for early Revolver rush style strategies but she gets a fair amount of Vamp from her passive and the pre-game mastery choices - it'll be a hit - I'm not sure how big it is.
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Are there any plans for deathcap? The current price at 3800 is honestly too expensive, given when you have only 2 slots left and you get NLR and Wand and have to save up 1700 gold upfront to complete. I can't think of any items that has a harsh save up. I like the change to hourglass tho, the current price was way to expensive when you just wanted the active.
> Are there any plans for deathcap? Not at the moment. I wasn't really looking at Core AP breakpoints this time around - I really wanted to focus on the components in lane and figuring out the upgrade pattern for those trees. This was more of a focus on realigning mana and mp/5 and the ramifications of that work.
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Ok, thats alright. Do you have any contexts behind Gunblade changes? As an Akali main from S1, that active damage change is bringing good old memories on how good a gunblade power spike is.
Well, it's always bugged me that upgrading Cutlasses passive (an instant-slow) gave you a slow delayed projectile slow. I also really wanted strong elemental theming on the Hextech Items - with Gunblade being Lightning, Rocket Belt being fire and Frost Cannon being ice. As far as the damage spike that Gunblade gets - that's more of a problem with how the components stack up. Cutlass has 125 base magic damage on it. Revolver has 75 to 125 base magic damage on it. I don't really want you to *lose* damage when you upgrade it - and so just decided to be super generous with it and take it off the ratio.
Annie is gonna have mobility. Holy shit
Yeah - it's highly likely that if anything causes the item to fail - it will be Annie interactions. It's a fairly dangerous and pretty experimental change overall.
>Yeah - it's highly likely that if anything causes the item to fail - it will be Annie interactions. It's a fairly dangerous and pretty experimental change overall. I'd say Ryze. This seems like just the item to break him, and if the +40 damage> permaban in competitive change showed anything it's that it doesn't take much to break Ryze.
I don't have a good gauge on Ryze at the moment - mostly because we're updating a ton of mages in the 6.9 update. I know that Annie has remained relatively the same - and so that's the one I can best make inferences on.
Is there a way to be able to apply the new heal from {{item:3174}} onto self without having it be broken for sustain? Maybe reduce the healing amount when used on self? I like the new stat line on {{item:3174}}'s , but I feel like the passive will just be useless (in terms of laning 1v1) until you move outside of the laning phase. Champions like {{champion:61}} and {{champion:43}} in the mid lane are aggressive enough to be able to go for solo kills, making {{item:3165}} the more enticing build path even though {{item:3174}} is being tuned as an item that shield mages want to take advantage of. Other than that I can't wait for these changes to come into the PBE!
Unfortunately, when Athene's can be used in primarily a selfish manner - I've seen it do pretty terrible things to make solo heal/poke patterns kind of ridiculous. Like, a Nidalee with this is already kind of a powerhouse at supporting her team - but if she gets to affect *herself*... eeergh.
I agree. However with the meta the way it is right now, I feel like {{item:3165}} will be the optimal build path on the majority of mages. The mages that used to take {{item:3174}} but were forced into building {{item:3165}} because of it's strength that don't benefit from the new passive (i.e: {{champion:115}} , {{champion:134}} , {{champion:63}} , {{champion:34}} , {{champion:143}} , {{champion:127}}) are just going to continue building {{item:3165}}. The shield mages that are supposed to benefit from the new passive are still going to want {{item:3165}} because it provides more damage. Being that there are only 5 shield mages (currently, could possibly be more from mid-season mage update), I feel as though the amount of champions wanting to build {{item:3174}}'s with its new passive are extremely limited. Especially if you consider the {{item:3165}} changes, which is nearly the same item with a better build path and flat mana sans the mana regeneration. I don't mean to ask for specifics, but are there going to be changes in the mid-season mage update that spawn new shield mages that want to take advantage of the new {{item:3174}}'s passive? Because as of right now I like the changes to the stats, however I find the passive a little underwhelming. I haven't used the item in-game yet however, maybe the passive healing is a lot more impactful than I am assuming.
I agree with you that Morellonomicon might be the optimal build path. However, I've found that from internal playtests, Morellonomicon no longer lets you play an infinite poke style with mages as it gives Flat Mana rather than a ramping regeneration pattern - so by the end game - if you go purely with Morellonomicon - the far end game you might be running out of Mana more often that you think. I've also seen Ziggs, Syndra and the like usually swap to Tear based strategies if they are planning a super long term attrition style of game. Then again... Hextech Frost Cannon's active has been powerful enough to cause players to discard both playstyles in favor of just having that cone slow - so I'm having a hard time gauging from internal playtest how it'll eventually turn out. I agree that the amount of champions that have Athene's are relatively small - it basically encompasses all the hybrid mage/supports but also is an option for any potential spammy healer type. Would be interested to hear your opinion on the number tuning of it after you've had a chance to try it out on PBE.
it seems like {{item:3504}} will be completely outclassed by the new {{item:3174}}. any plans on changing {{item:3504}} to make it worth buying?
Athene's Unholy Grail has a moderate chance of being pretty unsuccessful - notably due to the shield / heal trigger being incredibly isolated and niche compared to just more AP. I'm hoping that Unholy Grail might be a transformative pickup - but there's a good chance that they'll just kind of both be bad. If Athene's does work - hopefully what we learn from the champions picking it up will allow us to retune Censer to fit some of those champions as well - like if we see Athene's being primarily used on say... Karma to bolster her support nature - that will likely provide some light into how Censer should be adjusted.
I mean, you do understand that Grail is never going to bought, right (not literally)? Every one of these changes towards Grail has made the item more and more LESS desirable. Removing Mana Font and the mana restoration on kill or assist is the straw that broke the camels back. Please tell me you understand this. The reason why mages still buy this item is because of it's unparalleled mana regeneration. For fucks sakes man, just stop beating this item into the ground....it's already expensive to buy as a first item IF you even have the luxury to get it. As a side note, the change to Chalice is really interesting. I dig it
> The reason why mages still buy this item is because of it's unparalleled mana regeneration. For fucks sakes man, just stop beating this item into the ground....it's already expensive to buy as a first item IF you even have the luxury to get it. Right - the intent of the changes is to drive core mages out of thinking that infinite mana regeneration is something that they won't pay huge costs for. We want Athene's to be incredibly attractive on a subset of hybrid mage / supports - rather than core mid-laners like Ziggs or something. It is very much intended to murder the item for them. Basically, there's this entire subclass of support/mages that are a combination of peel / mez / buffing allies that I'm trying to build itemization for - and Athene's is meant to be the push towards opening up that pool of supportive mages to have more options.
@Xypherous: Are we ever going to get unique item support for DoT related champions like Swain, Malzahar, or even Brand? It's a spot we're severely lacking, and I'd be interested to see an item that would provide some sort of benefit to damage over time spells that would give us room for more champions like them in the future! **[Edit]** After some further reading, thoughts, and taking a peek at the list of champions and thinking about just how many champions have DoT effects....the item(s) could even include damag*ing* over time abilities, like Tibbers' AoE aura, or synergy with Liandry's Torment. This could be extended to things like Amumu or Sejuani's W abilities, Rammus or Anivia's ultimates, or even things like Zyra plants and Singed/Teemo/Cass poisons. Item support for damage over time type abilities is not only lacking, but most of these abilities are penalized with current items because of the strength inherent in them, but it seems like most items are trying to push mages into one of three groups: sustained DPS (new Catalyst and its' upgrades), burst DPS (new gap closing item for bursty mages like Annie/Leblanc), or utility mages (new Athene's on champions like Orianna/Lux with a new kiting item that, as far as we know, isn't exclusive with Frost Queen's Claim). While I suppose you could lump DoT style mages in one of the categories there by champion (for example, label Cass as more bursty because of her ultimate, or Malz as a sustained DPS mage because of his DoT pushing) there really should be some sort of itemization support for these other champions as well. **[Another concern]** Is the new Catalyst still going to be a component of Righteous Glory? If so, how are the stats of that item going to be affected (if at all) and are you concerned that junglers will start using Catalyst in the early game in place of Hunter's Potion for the champions that favor it so that they could pick up a Righteous Glory later? While I'm not necessarily opposed to this, it seems like a lot of individual champions (Udyr, Maokai, and a few others) will need some heavy hits to their jungle sustainability if this item is still in the build path.
Can you provide me anything more specific on what you would consider unique item support? From my point of view, Rylai's and Torment already favor DoT mages more so than most - while things like Thunderlord's also seem prime to be much better on DoT champions - so I'm likely missing something here about what type of support you're looking for. > Is the new Catalyst still going to be a component of Righteous Glory? If so, how are the stats of that item going to be affected (if at all) and are you concerned that junglers will start using Catalyst in the early game in place of Hunter's Potion for the champions that favor it so that they could pick up a Righteous Glory later? Catalyst is a component of Righteous Glory, and yes, it does give Tanks the ability to spec into Catalyst's cyclical sustain. It's important to note that this version of Catalyst is actually a far weaker sustain tool early than Catalyst's level up heal so I'm not sure that the jungle worry is entirely spot on. What this Catalyst does is scale into the later parts of the game and be a nice little boost for extended encounters.
Athene's charge system seems like it would be kind of clunky for shields being used for an effect other than the mitigation, the speed on Karma's shield for instance. I really like it though. Gonna love that for playing Sona. Is tear mostly intended to appeal to the same champs, or is it more intended for a broader audience of ap mids?
Tear is mostly intended to appeal to similar champions - although with the inability to get a good MP/5 item - I suspect that people who used to go Athene's for unlimited mana battery will use Tear as much more offensive alternative.
not a big fan of the zhonya change tbh but the rest seems pretty cool
Is there anything specific about the Zhonya's change that stands out? We still have time to adjust numbers if that could help things out.
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One thing that could be done, would it be possible to make it atleast 80AP? That way, it falls in-line with other 80AP items, so we have the 80AP line and the 100AP line.
It would likely make the item even more expensive - I'm caught between the 'I can't finish Zhonya's' versus 'I want my item to have sufficient AP to murder things.' I'll try to play around with some numbers here.
1. So Singed buff?{{champion:27}}
Maybe? I.. I'm not sure. Rod gives much lower Mana.. but there are more flat mana items? I just honestly don't know if Singed even builds Mana right now - I think he rushes Abyssal. >.>
This is really good. The change in mana regeneration means mages like Ahri and Syndra can't just safely power farm forever once they build it. Little concerned about RoA dependent champs, but I think they'll manage. Really glad to see CDR spreading out. And the separation of utility vs power in zhonya's. Cheaper utility items should helonout hybrid champs as theu can split power/utility between AD/AP. Will damage to shields count as damage taken for Catalyst, or still stuck in post-game stat limbo as "Damage Prevented"?
It's literally damage taken - so your health has to go down for your Mana to go up. It's just.. easier to figure out the net effect of each of the effects that way so the item is much easier to tune when I don't have to worry about potentially free health coming out of nowhere. XD
The changes seem interesting. Definitely will have to try them out on a lot of champions. These are major changes especially with how some items are very core on champions and may end up disappearing from their build entirely. For example taking away Athenes original design away from Syndra seems very concerning knowing now that it'll only be useful for utility mages. Then again many of the mages are getting changes as well. So I'm kinda worried and excited at the same time.
Long range artillery mages are likely definitely going to be underserved by this set of changes overall. They really need one other item to make this work - but a lot of our experimental designs just didn't make it through. I want to set up a structure that we can easily add items to in the future once that picture becomes clearer with the aftermath of the Mage stuff.
This is just a first pass, right? Because I see no ability power compensations for people who buy rod and zhonyas as core, (particularly karthus and kassadin) which can occasionally pickup tears rarely and even if they were forced into the double scaling itemization that buildpath would still yield even further less dmg than before since rod lost base mana as well as ap so the following archangels would be worth less than it would be. Really Hoping this is just a first pass type deal with compensation in the works for a later date.
> Because I see no ability power compensations for people who buy rod and zhonyas as core, (particularly karthus and kassadin) which can occasionally pickup tears rarely and even if they were forced into the double scaling itemization that buildpath would still yield even further less dmg than before since rod lost base mana as well as ap so the following archangels would be worth less than it would be. There is no AP compensation for these characters - this is true. They will only make up for the fact by having 1000 extra gold to spend on something else to spike with. While this does lower their maximum 6 item potential - their power curves and general power profile should be relatively unaffected by this given that they'll lose ~400 Mana and 30 AP - which is roughly equivalent to the base purchase power of 1000 gold. In the case of Zhonya's - that buildpath is also fairly streamlined - Codex is never a bad early purchase.
I guess I'll have to just take your word for it not being impactful enough to warrant a compensation. Things are going to be weird for like a week while mid mains reacquaint themselves, I was under the impression that rod of ages was in a good place and really served its purpose tear however was pushed out of several of the old "double scaler" users' builds because of how fast the game had become. Is this intended to get at least some of them to start re-adding tear to their core builds?
> I was under the impression that rod of ages was in a good place and really served its purpose tear however was pushed out of several of the old "double scaler" users' builds because of how fast the game had become. Is this intended to get at least some of them to start re-adding tear to their core builds? Rod has actually pushed out most first-item purchases on mages in general. It's also lead to mages having difficulty grabbing CDR as Rod into Morellonomicon is just awkward. So the net effect of having Rod be a powerful first item that also had 800 Mana has been Mages kind of just go Rod + Abyssal every game and avoid CDR because they can't hit 40 anyway. Tear's changes are intended to get Tear to solve your mana problems right away. From the get go - your spells are basically 25% cheaper. You still need to stack it up - but it's contributed hugely to your early game mana with that alone. However, this also means that if you suddenly need to pick up a Tear later in the game - it'll immediately make an impact to your needs right away. Part of the intent of the changes is to get all the mana items to have light synergies with each other. this is why each of the components has some sort of scaling nature to it - whether it's based on your max mana pool, your mana expenditure or just straight up damage : level scaling on Revolver. Rather than the current setup of being actually really anti-synergistic with each other - and a push for the items to be good even when not rushed super early - Rod of Ages and Archangel's staff look great on paper together - but the actual timing, price points made it kind of prohibitive in terms of payoff. With every Mana item having similar Mana - Archangel's pairing with any item becomes easier - regardless of the order in which you're grabbing the items. > I guess I'll have to just take your word for it not being impactful enough to warrant a compensation. It definitely could be impactful enough to warrant compensation. These numbers are pretty unfinished and we still have a month to go before 6.9 ships. If you get a chance to play it and feel that pinch - then any thoughts that could lead to better numbers tuning on the items in general would be helpful.
> Hextech Rocket Belt (Temporary Name) Active - Fire Bolt: Dash 300 units in a direction (at 1200 speed) and then unleash a nova of fireballs that deal 100 - 250 (+25% of your Ability Power) magic damage to enemies hit. Enemies hit by more than one fireball take 15% damage from additional balls. (30 second cooldown, shared with other Hextech items). This seems like it will only cause trouble. You're giving immobile mages, who's weakness is immobility an option to partially opt out of that weakness. Also I never want to see Ryze with this, ever. I just really feel like putting even a short ranged dash on an item is probably a bad idea.
> Also I never want to see Ryze with this, ever. I just really feel like putting even a short ranged dash on an item is probably a bad idea. I actually partially agree with you - It's why I describe it as a fairly dangerous ability to add. However, experimental content is designed to push the boundaries of what we're familiar or comfortable with. And so - if it doesn't work out, it doesn't work out.
Actually I can see this item abused by everyone becouse it's a free pseudo {{summoner:4}} with aoe dmg. The only downgrade of this item is flat AP but even so it might be useful on riven or draven. Isn't it better to simply make active increase spells range for 2-3 seconds with ~90 seconds cd?
If the only use of this item is to increase spell ranges - I think the most likely thing is to just delete the item. Increased Spell Ranges is probably the most non-interactive part of the item that I'd want to item to support. It's a powerful use of the item - to be sure - but it's actually the part that I probably like the least out of all possible use cases. My initial hope was that a dash would allow for a lot more outplay potential of either dodges, escapes or burst moments - but if all the item becomes is 'initiate on a dude from way farther than he thinks' - that item has very very little value overall in terms of net effects as it's not really enabling anything interesting - it's just a way for Annie to cheat her spell ranges and nothing of value for pretty much anyone else.
I went to LoL wiki to have an idea of what 300 range is, seems like it's Vayne's _Tumbe_, is this correct?
Tumble is 300, yes. Again, still adjusting numbers - it's highly likely that the distance and speed will change - that's just where it's currently at.
I hoped the Itemization pass would benefit Mordekaiser and I must say those are way better than what I expected! Especially the Hextech rocket belt, seeing that it gives an already immobile Juggernaut a Dash as well as another damage spell in his kit. Do the fire bolts apply spell effects though, especially Rylais, seeing that it's Morde's core item. And what does "sharing their CD with other Bolt items" mean? Does it mean I would only be able to use either Rocket belt or Gunblade if I decided to build both (and let's be honest, both seem to good to pass up on Morde)
> And what does "sharing their CD with other Bolt items" mean? Does it mean I would only be able to use either Rocket belt or Gunblade if I decided to build both (and let's be honest, both seem to good to pass up on Morde) Yes - that's what this means. It means that all Hextech items will put all other Hextech items on cooldown when used. This is partially so that I can actually put AP ratios on these items without worrying of some crazy 1.5 AP ratio item build - but also partially due to theming and clarity of choice. Pick the Hextech Item that you like the best or that you need the most. It's honestly what allows the actives themselves to be OP - it's a really important control lever.
Did you guys just make Mordekaiser a 100% banrate with that Hextech Rocket Belt? Because TY RIOT! You just gave my Mid lane Morde a reliable dash! EDIT: Why did I get downvoted? Wat
Maybe - again, I'd stress that the Hextech line is pretty experimental. Rocket Belt is a dangerous dangerous ability to add. We shall see whether or not it works. I'm betting that Annie breaks the game in half with it. That's not even a bet - the bet is more like - is there an iteration that allows this and Annie to coexist?
So this is coming out in 1 to 2 days on pbe? Or did I read the top wrong? Also I thought PBE was on the 6.8 cycle o.O sorry i'm drunk
For midseason, we're going to push some content out and it's going to sit for slightly longer. In this case, we're doing hopefully at least 1-month of these on PBE as there's a lot of stuff going on! :D
Very exciting stuff. Glad to see more actives on items, although I can't really tell what impact it's going to have, especially with the mage reworks coming soon. One thing that I can confidently say is that the tentative version of Morello is maybe a bit too strong. Flat mana is always superior to mp5 imo, especially early. Combine that into an item that gives you 20% CDR and 80 AP for only 2100 gold? That's nuts. I also think that being able to access Zhonya's active faster makes the item better, regardless of how much of the other stats it gives you shave off (well, within reasonable bounds) I'd like to ask a semi-related question: are you planning on changing Void Staff in any way?
> I'd like to ask a semi-related question: are you planning on changing Void Staff in any way? Not in this current iteration. I'd like to let Void Staff branch to give pure offensive mages some perks that aren't just even more raw damage but my focus was more trying to nail down the components for Mana and Mages - this means I was focusing primarily on first item lane buys and their respective upgrades.
If I understand this correctly, you're basically flat out removing full class mana regen items from the game, turning any poke or normal mage (Xerath, Vel'Koz, Syndra, Brand, Lux, Ziggs) into just an attrition battle, which is a boring playstyle for the enemy team, and a walking doom countdown for the mage. And why do you think that only supports need mana regen, when one of these items: {{item:3174}} {{item:3165}} is the first item bought and most mages? What actual support builds those? You have an actual supportive type mana regen item, but even then, not many build it because it needs to rely on heals, or just having a bigger mana pool (from levels or tank items) is all that is needed. The class that actually needs to regen mana is the ones that are using high cost spells often; in other words, mages.
> If I understand this correctly, you're basically flat out removing full class mana regen items from the game, turning any poke or normal mage (Xerath, Vel'Koz, Syndra, Brand, Lux, Ziggs) into just an attrition battle, which is a boring playstyle for the enemy team, and a walking doom countdown for the mage. Mana Regeneration style mages is an attrition battle. It's just one of Health Regeneration for the defending team rather than one of being accurate with your spells for the aggressor. I'd argue that standing there being hit by infinite spells getting whittled down slowly has never really been a siege environment that's been particularly enjoyable. > The class that actually needs to regen mana is the ones that are using high cost spells often; in other words, mages. Mages that have a large amount of regeneration with a smaller pool are mages that primarily are going to cast a *single* spell often and ration it aggressively - unless their regeneration is so massive as to be infinite - and then you just kind of throw spells out without caring. However, the play that we've generally seen this lead to is that we basically just have to tone down the effect of most Artillery mages because they'll effectively never run out. This also means that objective buffs, like Blue - have become increasingly irrelevant in terms of contributing to the pace of the end-game siege world. > And why do you think that only supports need mana regen It's not that I think supports are the only ones that need mana regeneration. It's a declarative statement that, of the classes that need 100% uptime on the map - that should be the defining feature of support classes. Put it another way - Supports do *need* mana regen - but more so than that, they *deserve* strong mana regen. They are the character class that has the least amount of agency over their individual position - and thus the class most deserving of going infinite with regards to resources. The more you decide to help your team rather than be an individual carry - the closer to 100% uptime you get to be as you basically have very little individual choice about when to recall or how to move around the map.
So then, will you be changing the power of said mages that as you say have a basically infinite mana pool? Because even on Xerath (during an actual siege where you are landing your spells), you can easily go very low on mana. In a proper siege, most minions are going to be gone before they get close enough for you to use passive, and the enemy team has enough resources that they can handle your poke for much longer then you mana pool can. You then are just there waiting as a literal coffin for the enemy assassin or diver to jump on you, and you have no way to fight back. As you said elsewhere on this thread: > Long range artillery mages are likely definitely going to be underserved by this set of changes overall. They really need one other item to make this work These long range mages are going to be stuck until you release that item *after* the mid year update settles down -- which will likely take a few patch cycles. -_- On a point of Athene's, isn't removing this as a viable defensive and self utility item for mages just turning the "AD force Zhonya's rush" problem to the other side of the damage spectrum? Now a mage either has to get abyssal and sacrifice the sustain they need to fight back for long, or they go defenseless against the likes of a LeBlanc, Ekko, or Elise or Nidalee jungle. -_- Yes supports deserve good mana regen (even if most of their abilities are more teamwide focused then mages, but that's bringing personal conflicts in), but should that itemization come at the cost of a well placed defensive sustain item for mages?
> So then, will you be changing the power of said mages that as you say have a basically infinite mana pool? Because even on Xerath (during an actual siege where you are landing your spells), you can easily go very low on mana. I do have to kind of wait and see on this one. Infinite Mana is pretty strong - but Flat Mana tends to be stronger in the early game at solving costs in the short term. Additionally, most of the infinite mages (Ziggs, et al) have alternatives they can swap to (Tear) - that accomplish similar goals for them while still running the risk of going dry. Xerath, on the other hand, is definitely an outlier in this camp - but he's had some major updates and been tuned in this item world not the previous one. > Now a mage either has to get abyssal and sacrifice the sustain they need to fight back for long, or they go defenseless against the likes of a LeBlanc, Ekko, or Elise or Nidalee jungle. Most mid-range mages have several option if what they are primarily looking for is burst mitigation - the stat in question tends to be Health rather than magic resistance though - Catalyst, Guise and the like. The other half of this is that the early MR shred reduction on Abyssal Scepter cuts both ways. Manaless AP bruisers have less of a damage edge against you during this time due to both Abyssal being more expensive - them having less AP - and them shredding less by ~5 points or so. > These long range mages are going to be stuck until you release that item after the mid year update settles down -- which will likely take a few patch cycles. It's likely that a large camp of them will move towards Archangel's Staff - though it isn't perfectly ideal for them at times - while a different camp will opt into a more supportive path if they get shut down in lane. The people caught in the middle - Xerath, is an excellent example of this, has been receiving updates in the middle of all this. So there's a mixture of stuff going on - mage updates, item changes and stuff that it's actually hard to say where things will be when it's all said and done. My gut reaction is that the item choice for long range artillery is poor (namely that Liandry's Torment both is and is not suited for poke). I haven't really given Artillery any more tools to express themselves as Artillery - whereas Catalyst, Hextech Frost Cannon, Zhonya's with CDR - etc. all do make a statement for mages that may have to fight from time to time. It is a bit harder to figure out what to give Artillery - because usually the answer is: I kind of just want to shoot fish in a barrel.
Maybe mana regen on an item optimised for poke based mages would be a good idea. I feel like these champs are the more attrition based mages and a complete lack of mana regen might hurt them disproportionately. I feel like with the way your itemisation's looking champs like Xerath and Ziggs may just get forced towards FQC as a mana item, because that's the most optimal item for them.
If they're trading AP and selfish power for team utility and uptime - so long as they pay the difference in AP that might be an acceptable compromise. We are reducing the sustain power of a lot of the bot lane support items - as we've just generally been noticing that there's way too much hp and mana sustain in bot lane. The problem here is when they lose nothing for having infinite uptime. This means we generally just take it out of their kit's power level or poke cooldowns because having Ziggs definitively infinite waveclear the wave without tradeoffs is... distressing, to say the least.
>The problem here is when they lose nothing for having infinite uptime. This means we generally just take it out of their kit's power level or poke cooldowns because having Ziggs definitively infinite waveclear the wave without tradeoffs is... distressing, to say the least. But Zed having infinite wave clear and pushing power with energy is somehow fine?
You mean the guy who we've nerfed twice times since the season started and I believe almost had a third nerf wave incoming? I think that's a pretty good example of starting to take power out of a kit but I could be off on that. I don't think Zed is fine but I also don't think we've necessarily been kind to the guy recently in terms of changes.
I'm not really liking the changes to spirit's visage and banshee's veil. It doesn't feel like tanks have any good MR options. AD bruisers have maw, AP bruisers have abyssal, and tanks used to have spirit's visage and banshee's veil, but now those two are being pushed away from having large amounts of health and MR. There are three different health/armor items for tanks to choose from, why are the health/MR options so lacking?
We've found that the current options available to tanks - namely the live incarnation of Spirit Visage is pretty overbearing for most sources of magic damage. I'm not sure how much you agree with that statement saying that it's lacking when the ones on live strictly probably just deserve to be nerfed given their power level.
Yet it's okay to have so many great armor options for tanks? Sunfire, Iceborne. Deadmans, Thornmail, Frozen Heart, Randuins. So if an AD champ gets fed, a tank can easily shut him down by itemizing properly. But what happens if a mage gets fed? With the lack of good MR options after this change, and with the fact that Void Staff is still doing Total Magic Penetration instead of Bonus like the new LW, it will be extremely difficult to shut down fed mages. Aren't you guys concerned about this?
Health doesn't counter AD because lifesteal exists. If your defense is Health versus an AD champion - they will simply drain off of you and live to fight another day. Health, however, **does** counter AP because AP is non-sustained and non-renewable. So there are actually two primary ways you can negate magic damage - Health and MR. Because of this dichotomy - almost every Health option is powerful versus mages - including some of the items that have Armor on it. Basically, a 5000 health characters with no MR or Armor is already magic immune, for the most part. However, that guy is basically just a walking HP sack for an AD carry. This also means that Regeneration is also a very effective mitigation type versus magic - hence the push for more regeneration on Visage.
You mentioned wanting to remove CDR from more offensive based AP items, do you have any plans for changing Nashor's Tooth? Seeing as it along with Athenes and Morellos all gave 20% CDR I figured it would be reworked as well. Also since Abyssal is getting its magic pen nerfed early are there any plans to buff any of the other flat magic pen items? As it stands it seems like almost all flat magic pen has been made more and more costly with the increases in price to sorc shoes and haunting guise.
> You mentioned wanting to remove CDR from more offensive based AP items, do you have any plans for changing Nashor's Tooth? Hrm. What I meant was that I wanted to remove the specific trinity of Mana Regen / CDR / Offensive AP - as I think this particular combination has proven to be basically unbeatable in terms of desirability. Nashor's Tooth is a fairly specialized item and so it's not changing right now. The number of good Nashor's Tooth users is.. limited. > Also since Abyssal is getting its magic pen nerfed early are there any plans to buff any of the other flat magic pen items? Not at the moment. We have a number of changes on the MR side of items that are trying to reduce the power of early MR item spikes - hence trying to control it from the opposite side a bit better. Hence the change to Cowl and Visage which are two MR items that are commonly rushed - and I think we have some light rebalancing of some of the other MR items but those will slowly move as we creep closer to the actual patch date.
When you talk about Mana Regenration, it reminds me of the Base Mana/ Mana Regen overhaul you did earlier this season. I think this is a bold direction you're choosing to take with how Mana functions with mages / supports, and I think I like it! However, such a big effect on how the Mana flows via items is going to be affecting the laning phase again, especially for the first few backs for items. Are we going to be considering these Base Mana/ Mana regen values again, and potentially be looking at possibly another set of fine-tuning some champions? I think the mana game is going to need to be looked at, especially for some tanky supports that rarely seem to be limited by it (*COUGH COUGH {{champion:223}} COUGH*) , and it's something that I think would really make laning a lot healthier across the board (not just in Bottom!).
> However, such a big effect on how the Mana flows via items is going to be affecting the laning phase again, especially for the first few backs for items. Are we going to be considering these Base Mana/ Mana regen values again, and potentially be looking at possibly another set of fine-tuning some champions? It is highly likely that we'll have to deal with some fallout from this. The mitigating factor from this is that Flat Mana is actually *much much* stronger in the early game than MP/5 given the relative size of your pool and so the actual play of it has been this weird kind of spikey mana pattern. You go back, you buy your mana item - suddenly you feel flush with spells for a little while.. until your costs start to increase again and you're like 'Man.. hm.. okay, maybe I'll upgrade it. Maybe I'll get another one.' kind of deal. My goal is to end up in a world where people feel comfortable buying 1.5 to 2 mana items because those mana items have both Mana, something cool that they want, be it Lich Bane or Hextech Frost Cannon's active - while also having the items synergize better with themselves like Archangel's + Morellonomicon in this world.
Calling it now, the fire-dash item, if it makes it to live, is going to be a nightmare to balance. Mages were made immobile for a reason; those that lack mobility lack it for a reason. The Annie/Swain/Ryze shenanigans.... Xerath and Ziggs kiting even harder with a mini-flash on a 30 second cooldown.... (although the fact that the dashes can't get over walls is reassuring).... it does sound pretty damn fun though hahahaha not sure we want mages to jump into teams and get blown up though. eh hype(!)
> Calling it now, the fire-dash item, if it makes it to live, is going to be a nightmare to balance. You are not the only one with this suspicion. Dangerous experimental things are dangerous.
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Why didn't you guys make that zhonya change like back in january? It was clear the item was in a bad spot ESPECIALLY since the mages that actually needed to build it had major issues surviving until they got enough gold to build the full item for 1050 gold. It's a pretty core item on some mages and it's a good item against Zed. Not only did Zed get out of control, but maw also clearly needs nerfs(Which im aware its getting). Just felt like this zhonya change would have done a lot of good if it was made way sooner considering it would have opened up mid lane a little bit more...
> Just felt like this zhonya change would have done a lot of good if it was made way sooner considering it would have opened up the lane a little bit more... Apologies on that - it actually took a bit of thought while I was trying to work on new CDR items before I thought about rereouting some of the existing ones. The problem with Zhonya's was basically just shrinking Zhonya's and making it cheaper left an item that didn't really fit into any part of your build. It was just this awkward small'ish - kind of slot inefficient - required thing. However, adding CDR to it and Abyssal made the entire picture a bit more clear - Ah, this is a defensive option that allows you to achieve a sustained combat pattern - okay, that "story" started to make a bit more sense once I had started down the route. My problem is that I tend to focus on seasonal release windows like the preseason or mid-season because my work is mostly focused on structural setup for future work rather than iterate on the problems of the existing patch. I try to sneak in structural fixes that are also topical when I can but I don't work patch to patch a lot of the time - but it's rare.
Xypherous Is All This gonna be true? i showed my friend and he said its fake to him :v
They aren't on PBE yet - we're trying to get them in in the next couple of days.
Hello Xypherous! While I give my head the time to handle all these changes, what are your thoughts about tanks picking up some of these items? E.g. Rocket Belt, Frost cannon, abyssal or zhonia?
I'm okay with tanks end up picking up some of these items. They have a good chunk of AP - so someone like Nautilus won't be as efficient with it as someone like Gragas - but I think I'm okay with them feeling like they can use these items effectively.
Ow... My head.. I Guess I'll enjoy 40%(45%) CDR more often.. but oh god, there's so much change. Hire Faker and Faker's Analysts' to explain everything to us. lol
Apologies for the headache. TL;DR - Mana items are different. Spell Vamp is gone. There are some new active items - one is a slow, one is a dash. Poke is best supported by Tear. Burst/Trade patterns are best supported by Chapter. All out Brawl/Fight is best supported by Catalyst. Mana Regen is mainly for supportive mages now. Flat mana is more for selfish mages.
"We're killing Spell Vamp from the item system. We've been unable to get this statistic to be purchased on anyone but Vladimir." I must have missed in the notes where Akali was removed as a champion. The only reason it might even seem as though she's not tied to that item is because currently you guys have itemized tank items to the point people play Tank Akali and people can win with that. Once you guys finally fix those tanky items though, everyone who actually plays Akali as an assassin tends to stick to Revolver because her early game is so bad that it's basically required. Her passive alone tends not to save her from the miserable laning experience she has against competent players that don't provide her the mistakes she needs to thrive on an enemy.
> Once you guys finally fix those tanky items though, everyone who actually plays Akali as an assassin tends to stick to Revolver because her early game is so bad that it's basically required. Her passive alone tends not to save her from the miserable laning experience she has against competent players that don't provide her the mistakes she needs to thrive on an enemy. Right - instead of healing with Revolver, instead you'll get an additional ~70 to 80 damage on your combo. While this isn't a terribly great trade, all things considered - it's definitely more assassin like than Akali healing to burst you. Furthermore, I do agree that her laning phase is miserable but consider the following: We've had to make every champion who could conceivably buy Revolver's laning phase miserable or toned down considerably. I'm killing Spell Vamp mostly because I'm actually kind of sick of what item availability on this stat has done to these champions. Every single one of these champions have become more binary based on whether or not they can acquire the gold to get Revolver - and every single one of these champion's laning phases has gotten worse and more miserable because of it as we further accept the world in which they rush Revolver. The stat isn't what solved their poor lane - The stat is what *caused* their poor lane after balance. I want to see what the world is like after this - because the existence of early lane requirements of this magnitude is actually what has lead to these kind of lane curves for these characters - we have to destroy their early games because we know that their first 1200 gold goes towards a fountain of sustain that can be applied safely. It was basically hard enough trying to get a resourceless character to work - but Spell Vamp basically said 'Well, every resourceless character can also turn resources into Health if they can get 1200 GP' - That demands a character whose early laning phase is about as unsuccessful as we can possibly make it.
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I forgot to ask: How does the new hextech revolver passive work? Like does it only work on champions? It would kinda suck if you wasted it on any of your next AA on a minion. Not to be a grammar nazi but you got Hextech revolver cost wrong its 330 atm not 340.
It only works on Champions.
>Furthermore, I do agree that her laning phase is miserable but consider the following: We've had to make every champion who could conceivably buy Revolver's laning phase miserable or toned down considerably. Could we actually buff Akali's Q to the point where it can kill a minion again then?
The only way to do that would probably be bonus damage versus minions. Otherwise you just kind of mash Q on the enemy dude until he runs. :P
Just noticed the bottom part of this, another concern of mine is that she's going to part of this experiment, then not see anything happen to her for a few patches while you guys deservedly nerf the things that let tank akali work, then Akali as a whole won't be touched until her eventual rework because that's probably what's going to be decided as the only thing that can work for her.
You've actually hit upon one of the pain points of just generally anything affecting Akali. There's a bunch of stuff on the backend that means that work on Akali has been hard to justify because someone is always like 'I'll totally update Akali - I swear' and then nothing happens and then... I sympathize with you on wondering where fixes or interim fixes for your favorite champion has been. After all this time, I honestly *still* don't have a great answer for that given that I don't work on specific patch to patch tuning. Apologies - it's not much of an answer. I can poke around about it - but given that the last couple of times of 'no - there's totally going to be an update' kind of thing going - it's just kind of a frustrating situation and I imagine it's even worse for you.
What does the rectifying of the Spell Vamp system mean for {{champion:25}} passive? Is that going to be reworked in some fashion to compensate or will she be keeping her passive?
She'll be keeping her passive. I'm only killing Spell Vamp on the item system.
That Athenes is practically designed to fail honestly. It's too niche, you have maybe 5 champions that can build it. All you've done is essentially taken it away from the champions that would have used it and tried to make a better Ardent Censer. I will be absolutely shocked if that item is actually useful. I like many of these changes, but that one seems to lack depth in the process for it. What I'm trying to say is (for this item to actually be viable on the champions that could actually use it), the numbers would have to change/be ridiculous. Or like you said in a different comment, more AP would just be more useful. It's kind of disappointing that with the things that could've happened to Athenes, that this is the direction that it went. I remember when the decision between getting Morello or Chalice was what you were laning against. Chalice was the go-to for magic laners, but it's been shoved out by Abyssals presence. A different idea I'd like to offer is potentially making Morello/Chalice more similar, but making them more angled towards mitigation. As in, Morello could become an armor item and Chalice could remain the MR option, but obviously we're way to late for that idea to be considered. Overall, super disappointed with the Athenes direction; but I'm pretty interested in the rest of the options.
> That Athenes is practically designed to fail honestly. It's too niche, you have maybe 5 champions that can build it. It's likely that the pool of champions will be small. It's honestly small already because no champion really has a need for Chalice at the moment because there's so many good support options other than those lines. However - there are two primary goals here: 1. Get infinite mana off of being a mage expectation. If I changed Morello to Flat Mana and I didn't touch Athene's - everyone would just swap to Athene's. 2. Try to create some way of still providing regeneration based mana at a huge identity trade-off - which is what the item does. I hope to never go into an Orianna or Morgana game expecting to build it because I want to be a primary damage threat - but if it turns out that's impossible due to circumstances - having a path to opt into a supportive pattern appeals to me from the choice front. However, what I will say is that making the Ardent Censer space work would be a win on its own. I had another item that I was working on (A Sheen upgrade for supportive mages) - all under the general umbrella that the item space for supportive mages is a bit thin and none of it works and it needs further exploration and experimentation in this area. Basically, support itemization for castery types is pretty uninteresting at the moment and despite the high chance of failure (See also: Rocket Belt) - would still like to deep dive and explore the items for a while. Spooky Ghosts straight up didn't work until the stat-line was made smooth.
I have a few general questions/issues regarding these changes. 1. Mages simply have poor defensive itemization against ad. Even making {{item:3157}} cheaper and less "core" doesn't quite address the fact that its currently the only option mages have to defend themselves against Ad threats. Zhonya's and stasis are very powerful items, but a 3k legendary-tier item that's our only option really pigeonholes the class against their more Stabby Assassin counterparts (Whom you've made ArmorPen a core stat), 2. These items look cool and all, but have you guys cross-referenced their potential balance issues on {{champion:81}} and {{champion:42}} ? These two have a history of completely breaking good mage items due to their cross-pollination between AD/AP, and as fun as these items are, I really do feel like these two are an innevitable issue that should be looked at very closely before any of this gets near release. (I feel we've had to learn this lesson enough already) 3. Hextech GLP-07A, you're confusing me by using {{item:3110}} in place of {{item:3010}} . The former implies that this item builds out of a legendary-tier item, and should have Armor in it, Might wanna fix that :P. 4. Hextech Rocket Belt sounds really cool, and honestly has the power to help out a lot of low mobility mages. Aaaaaand then there's {{champion:103}} {{champion:7}} {{champion:105}} , Mages who really will achieve even more absurd levels of mobility than they already have access to. I think the damage component on it may be overkill. Its like fusing a {{item:3285}} and a dash into one item, and as cool as that sounds, the dash alone is incredibly powerful. 5. {{item:3174}} looks like a support item, not a mage item. Since outside of a scant few Utility mages There's no way to make the "Blood charges" work effectively, Athene's heavily risks being completely abandoned by the mage class as a whole. There is very little reason to take it over {{item:3165}} , assuming you succeed in weening mages off of Mp/5. 6. How does {{item:3028}} work relative to mana/hp equalibrium? Does it do either form of regeneration well when the Hp/Mp %values are even? Why is this effect lost on upgrading to {{item:3174}} ? If the goal is to decouple Mages from Mp/5, wouldn't using the unique sustain mechanics brought in by {{item:3028}} and {{item:3070}} be a more effective way of padding Athene's sustain properties? 7. Is there any concern regarding supports diving into some of these new actives? {{item:3174}} as I've mentioned before feels like a support item rather than a mage item, and {{item:3027}} being so cheap and cost-efficient (~144% at max charge) would be really tempting on supports and AP Junglers.
> Mages simply have poor defensive itemization against ad. I don't believe I want to tackle this issue currently. Mages that do have to stand toe to toe against AD usually have some targetted defense in their kits - while long range mages I believe we just want to keep always kind of fearing for their lives against physical threats. This is very much by design that you are capped at how much you can spend in Armor in the AP space. That said - Maw really *really* isn't helping things in this regard with its damage spike potential the other way. :p > These two have a history of completely breaking good mage items due to their cross-pollination between AD/AP, and as fun as these items are, I really do feel like these two are an innevitable issue that should be looked at very closely before any of this gets near release. Excellent point. I'll try to ask around about this a bit more to see if we can break some things on the extreme end. It's pretty likely one of the three (ezreal, corki, kayle) will pose serious problems with something. > GLP-07A icons Man it's late. I'll swap the icons. Give me a bit. > Mages who really will achieve even more absurd levels of mobility than they already have access to. I think the damage component on it may be overkill. Its like fusing a and a dash into one item, and as cool as that sounds, Yeah - it's a really dangerous experimental space. One of the things that are meant to roadblock pure AP assassins a bit is that throwing a Kindlegem in there is a fairly big setback for most of the champions listed above. While the additional health is nice - it does mean that it slows down their burst power progression. > Athene's looks like a support item, not a mage item. Since outside of a scant few Utility mages There's no way to make the "Blood charges" work effectively, Athene's heavily risks being completely abandoned by the mage class as a whole. Yes. If you go down Athene's as a mage - you are basically declaring that you have decided to specialize into supporting your team. This is targetted at a specific subset of champions who can make that choice - as they are basically the only ones who we think deserve to be able to spec into heavy mana regeneration. > How does work relative to mana/hp equalibrium? Does it do either form of regeneration well when the Hp/Mp %values are even? It just bounces back and forth depending on which one is currently higher. > Why is this effect lost on upgrading to Athene's? It's not lost when upgrading. Athene's just lost the murder-stat. > Is there any concern regarding supports diving into some of these new actives? Not particularly. Mana and MP/5 are statistics that are shared among a wide variety of classes. Tanks, Supports and Mages all touch this system - and so it's important that Mana and MP/5 items can "bleed" over to the various classes. The design intent is that there's some inefficiencies when picking it up (For example, Alistair picking up Athene's doesn't quite deal enough damage to hit max blood charges all the time) - but that they are acceptable splash candidates.
Appreciate the speedy response, and hope you don't lose too much sleep lol. Its almost 5am here so assuming you're west coast it must be almost 2 lol. Thanks for letting me pick your brain, and I'm excited to test out these items, and I'll be more than happy to give you guys as comprehensive feedback as I can once I have a chance to play with them ^_^
NP - People asking in-depth questions actually helps quite a bit. By answering your questions then any late comers in the thread will have plenty of information about questions they might have thought about asking as well - and then I can sleep and know that new people arriving in the thread can at least read the old responses and maybe get the answer they were looking for.
These are really interesting changes and I look forward to testing them; however, I think Riot needs to further break down "mage" as a class and remember not only are there energy-AP oriented champs (thanks for the zhonya's, abyssal changes), but also supports and how various mages differ due to range, ratios, and mobility. It is a very diverse class, just searching mage brings up 29 champions as the primary role and I think its very important to address that. You've broken down "fighters" into juggernauts at least. (which I think was a great classification, although people haven't extended it beyond what you guys originally put in. They forget about Nasus, Volibear, Shyvana, Udyr, and Trundle) I think more classifications need to come up, even if they aren't perfect. Stonewall008 divides his junglers to an extent: Bodyguard for example: Nautilus, Maokai. * The (AP)assassins are one very diverse class: Fizz, being melee, but having extremely mobility, Diana with high ratios, some durability, but no escape (also I'd love to see her become less of an assassin and more of what her kit LOOKS like it should do - use Q-R to stick to targets, while auto attacking - so bruiser, but I understand you guys aren't looking at her and the assassin playstyle has become too core). LeBlanc, ranged and lots of mobility. Each of those assassins have varying needs. Then Twisted Fate, an AP assassin made by his ultimate and devastating pick potential. In general these champions are all looking for the most AP possible, as well as CDR for more ultimates, durability, etc. * Artillery: Lux, Ziggs, Xerath, each having a hard CC and a slow, and extreme range, all of them with extreme mana costs. However they each play quite differently for a couple reasons, imo. Lux tends to have more pick oriented playstyle, with significantly higher CD's, but being able to 100-0 more often due to low ult CD. Ziggs is kind of out there at the moment due to the various nerfs, but his main damage is on an extremely low CD of 4 seconds before CDR, and used to have a strong profile for waveclear across the map. (I think it may be possible to give that back with the advent of banner and ZZ'Rot). Xerath feels by far the most immobile being limited by his q charging and ultimate, but packing some of the largest damage, while having a passive that makes him feel very oppresive in lane, but needs to be more careful with abilities in teamfights. * Long-Range Mages: Actually I think Lux falls into here more than artillery as she isnt really able to spam her abilities in the way a Ziggs or Xerath can due to CD's and only having 3 rather than 4 damaging abilities. She wants to hold onto her q, like Ziggs holds on to W and Xerath holds onto E, so she really only puts one ability out constantly: her E. * Mid-range mages: Ahri, Anivia, Brand, Lissandra, Cassiopeia. Most of these champions opt for some amount of durability, found in the form of RoA (although usually Ahri relies on her Q+R, zhonyas. currently RoA is very strong overall and built on her as well). Lissandra and Ahri like to poke around until they can find a key target and pick them out. Brand, I feel plays more like a shorter ranged Ziggs, but with the ability to hit any target and focused on his combo game. The only unifying things that mages really have are AoE damage and spell-centricity. Maybe rather than classification the attributes of a mage should be noted: zone-control (Anivia, Lux, Ziggs, Orianna), wants to be in the center of a fight (Fiddle, Kennen, Lissandra, Swain), initiation powers (Fiddle, Kennen, Lissandra, Twisted Fate), pick potential (TF, Ahri, Syndra), DPS (Cassiopeia, Azir, Karthus, Swain), Off-tank, ETC. In addition their flexibilty makes it even more complicated: for example, Ahri can be built as: Full AP assassin, Tank (sunfire+IBG, although anyone can do that T.T), Kite (RoA+Rylais+45% CDR), Tank killer (Liandrys+Rylais). Lissandra is somewhat similar in that her role can change based on the meta. She can be a tank shredder in a juggernaut meta, with her Q+Liandrys. She can be a pick champion, She can can be an initiation in a squishier meta. She can be anti-assassin. When creating/balancing these items: 1. keep in mind specific champions (Does this champion still have available build paths, or are they left in the dust) 2. build items to amplify specific attributes/playing patterns (new catalyst seems to be very geared towards Swain, etc, Abyssal+Zhonyas feel good for Kennen and others and a strong way to finish the 40% CDR, losing on damage) I am sure you all have thought of a lot of this at Riot, and this is a bit rambly, but I liked the direction you were heading with the zeal item diversification and juggernaut classification for both champions and items and wanted to make sure this would be headed in the same way and more thought out. Overall I think it's good for game health, even if the numbers were off the mark originally.
The champion update team and Roster team would have more thoughts to the classification you speak of - my personal work is systems - so I mostly think about structural things and the skeleton framework that allows for expansion opportunities. A lot of the above work, for instance, is to establish some kind of framework for stats such that we can more easily create items in the future. Some jargon I've heard thrown around is like 'Artillery' (Long-Range) vs. 'Battlemage' (Brawl) vs. 'Assassin' (Mobile Target Selector) vs 'Controller' (Slow Mid-Fight Zone) for the various archetypes you've talked about - but these are designer jargons that they're trying to hash out. In the end - Mana is too broad of a stat to tailor to a specific type of mage - and the goal of a lot of the items is to enable you to customize your class and push you *more* into one of these spaces. I'd want to talk about your post in more specifics - but I'd be stepping on the toes of Champion Update and Roster and putting words in their mouth. Apologies on that. I'd flag down Statikk / Meddler if you see them as they're the ones who can speak to this from a more up-to-date perspective.
Does the Chalice of Harmony change effect Mikael's Crucible at all?
Yes. I'll clarify the original post to state that Crucible has the new passive rather than Font.
So wait. You have TWO Spell Vamp. items and you're saying that it's too niche? You have to make it more flexible if you want more champions to use the stat. Try adding more Spell Vamp. items instead so people are more likely to buy it.
Adding more spell vamp items doesn't actually solve the issue - as the issue is that we can't seem to get any particular incarnation of spell vamp to be bought on *more* than one champion at a time. It's not how many spell vamp items are bought - it's, given a spell vamp item, how many champions can it serve. If an item can only serve a single champion. Basically, a core issue with Spell Vamp in the item system is that because mages are so different and the properties of their sustain is so different - that you basically just have to individually design spell vamp items that suit a specific pattern. Lifesteal is fairly constrained in terms of what can apply it and the rules are somewhat consistent. However, that's just hand tailoring items for champions after a certain point - which isn't really desirable for the item system.
If morellos gives Mana and more AP instead of mana regen that separates the items quite a bit already so having Grail at 100% mana regen, 50 AP and at 2100 gold same as morellos 30 AP is stronger than 25 MR, and then the chalice passive would be slightly stronger most of the time vs grievous wounds. If you want a team aspect how about something hooked to mana regen like your heals, shields, and speed buffs are 20% to 0% stronger based on your current mana by 100% to 0% (so 100 heal at 100% mana will be 120 heal and 50% speed up will be 60% speed up), If you are going to force it into a utility mage/support realm then at least let more mages buy it than just healing/shielding ones. Also Hextech Gunblade will need a new build path since Hextech Revolver will receive an active for it even if it is a vamp scepter and pickaxe (40AD and lifesteal for the omni-vamp), but having 2 item actives for the same item will be slightly awkward. **** Also I do not think you need to remove Will of the Ancients completely, you can have it like new catalyst but just with AP and CDR except you heal from spell casts (and once per second for toggle abilities) for X +Y%AP health with the requirement that the ability has to hit an enemy
> Also Hextech Gunblade will need a new build path since Hextech Revolver will receive an active for it even if it is a vamp scepter and pickaxe (40AD and lifesteal for the omni-vamp), but having 2 item actives for the same item will be slightly awkward. Revolver is an on-hit passive with a cooldown that is lost when it upgrades. > Also I do not think you need to remove Will of the Ancients completely, you can have it like new catalyst but just with AP and CDR except you heal from spell casts (and once per second for toggle abilities) for X +Y%AP health with the requirement that the ability has to hit an enemy Something I've actually struggled with a bit on this front is that there's two primary audiences for sustain. There's sustain because I need to stay in lane against an overwhelming poke opponent and there's sustain in which my opponent cannot interact with me. While #1 is an item slot niche that we'd like to fulfill - players tend to never buy this (their core item path is more important) as going down this route essentially means admitting defeat in order to stay in lane. However, when we make the item attractive enough to be bought to fulfill this niche... It becomes #2. Number #2 is an item slot niche that whenever it has been filled - we've been unable to balance properly as a global item. It's a tricky bit because it's ultimately a strong fantasy - but one that we've found difficult to support as it just leads to some of the exact same problems that sustain supports have when they can solo - you get an unstoppable harasser that sits there. Likely, the space for a sustain item in lane is something that increases the efficiency of your trades - such that direct combat is more fruitful - which is what the current Revolver design is intended to do - give trade power on a cooldown.
So, I know you're probably going to just release it as is (to the PBE) but {{item:3145}} {{item:3067}} Hextech Rocket Belt will not be healthy for the game if it is allowed to exist in that manner. The issue with giving immobile champions mobility in items is the fact that champions with Mobility can buy the item and use it too. Imagine Annie with Rocketbelt Flash Tibbers, now you have to be extra careful around Annie, and it leaves little counterplay options to that once she buys Rocketbelt. Imagine LeBlanc with Rocketbelt, having a 3rd dash on an Assassin basically means that AP Assassins will rule over all. Akali can use it to get close for her ult, Diana the same. Hell, even Malphite could make use of it if a surefire engage is needed. I feel like instead of a dash, making it a boost of movement speed a la {{item:3069}} or {{item:3800}} would be better than an extra {{summoner:4}}
> Imagine LeBlanc with Rocketbelt, having a 3rd dash on an Assassin basically means that AP Assassins will rule over all. Akali can use it to get close for her ult, Diana the same. Hell, even Malphite could make use of it if a surefire engage is needed. The goal of Rocket Belt is to enable more plays rather than accomplish the same feat by having more raw statistical power. Rocket Belt isn't trying to solve the mobility problem of immobile mages. It's to solve the fact that a certain class of mages, in general, resort to basically brute forcing their way to success by simply having more raw damage or more tankiness and succeeding through sheer raw power level rather than any kind of clever play. If Malphite is using Rocket Belt to perform a successful engage - that may be okay - so long as he pays for it in terms of either being squishier or giving up damage. The tuning and the build path of this item is important. For example, let's take your Leblanc example - There is a 1300 gold gap where Leblanc isn't gaining any AP. She's sitting on a Kindlegem instead. The additional health is great on a mage who expects to be brawling in the mid-range - this isn't necessarily what Leblanc needs to succeed - she needs to keep up in the damage race rather than dip into survivability.
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The Rocket Belt sounds disgusting, I love it. So the way I understand it, is it's Lucian E, mixed with Kennen's E+W active? Probably a bit too strong in terms of numbers in conjuction with it's effect. Which is so good I'd just justify building it on near anyone, just for the health and active, then consider everything else a bonus. Would this active trigger Rylai's/Ludens? Can it go through walls?
It cannot go through walls. I'm still tuning dash specifics - it's likely that the speed and distance of the dash will undergo heavy iteration. All Hextech items proc all spell effects - they're meant to be '5th' spells in many respects. This means that Revolver's on-hit proc can trigger Rylai's - for instance - similarly for all the fireballs.
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Will Wooglet's be changed as a result of the Zhonya change?
Not at the moment. Wooglet's was created directly as a result of 'hey, the meta in TT just has different needs than SR.' Shrinking the AP on Wooglet's and adding CDR feel really weird to me as well - it has a 25% AP bonus on the item and the item's message gets kind of confusing.
Does The new rod of ages have the new catalyst passive? Also why change the recipe rather than just reducing the combine cost on the current recipe? Also does rod of ages give 20 ability power per stack or does it give 20 ability power at full stacks?
Rod of Ages does have Catalyst's new passive. Rod of Ages gives 40 ability power at full stacks, 4 AP per minute. I changed Rod of Age's initially because I wanted to have every 120 AP item require the commitment of Needlessly Large Rod. I may end up reverting this recipe change as I dropped the total AP on it to 100 sometime during iteration. Several people have brought this up and it sounds like a fairly good catch.
Don't you think Rod of Ages is getting a huge nerf on mana? Like it lost 100 base mana and 30 every stack. Now in total it gives 300 + 100. Can you maybe change it to 20 stacks of mana per minute? That way we could get 300 + 200, for a total of 500
I'm undecided about whether or not primary Mana items should be 400 or 500. My goal with Mana items is to make their secondary utility effects strong enough such that people felt comfortable buying a bit more excess Mana than they needed and got some perks that they didn't mind. However, what that Mana breakpoint is to make 1.5 to 2.5 Mana items comfortable is still a little fuzzy to me. I settled on 400 because it seemed like a good value for a single item to offer. Rod of Ages **is** getting a huge nerf in terms of Mana - the item is kind of crazy on live.
I'm super excited to test {{item:3174}} on mid lane {{champion:43}}! Will her Mantra'd E heal the entire team?
Unfortunately no - one blood charge will heal for one point - so by the time you get to the 3rd/4th person you've shielded, you're going to be out of charges. You don't waste Blood Charges on people that don't need healing though.
Is righteous glory going to have the new catalyst passive?
How would the new athene's interact with lux's shield or karma's defiance?
It drains charges in a first-come first-serve basis. Every charge drained will heal for one point.
Speaking of someone who plays a lot of champs that would use Athene's, it's way too niche. It's a support item now, and not even a support item that's gonna be used on all that many supports. There's, theoretically, nothing wrong with having an item only used by a few champs, but it's just weird to see such a staple become such a niche item.
Athene's hasn't been a staple for a while now looking at usage data. It's primarily core on Artillery Mages that can go for infinite spam - but even they've shifted to use Rod of Ages. The last time Athene's was super staple - it basically was where Morellonomicon's current status is.
Alright - so, having read everything you've responded to (reading actually everything sounds infeasible), there's a couple things I'd like to see addressed that I haven't so far, more on the enjoyability/gameplay patterns side. I have a couple feelings tied together on changing offensive AP over to flat mana instead of mana regen, all more or less centering on the fact that flat mana is much more binary than mp5 in any given situation - either you're on or you're off, no in between. This is something you guys addressed a long long time ago, by removing mana burn as a mechanic - not being able to cast spells isn't fun, and getting lower on mana doesn't actually do anything until you actually run out of mana - except for cases where you're below full combo range, only able to cast one or two spells. When you get there, you move out of a strict binary - you're no longer 0% effective or 100% effective, but, say, 60% effective. I actually really like the gameplay around being partially effective at low mana range - you have to ration things out and think carefully about how you can time or target the spell for maximum effectiveness to get the most out of what you have, or which two abilities will give you the most bang for your buck - how you can operate at that 60% and be useful just a little bit longer. When my core stat is raw mana, I hit that point, find a spot to throw out my two abilities, and then back because I am now 0% effective. Having mana regen as a primary stat gives me a lot more choices to make. I have enough mana for two spells now, and they get out of position - do I drive them out of lane with what I have, or should I wait another 10 seconds for a full combo that might get the kill, but I might not get a position like this again? If I go down to 0% effectiveness because I just can't cast any spells, do I recall now, or do I wait a little longer and get back up to 60? Nothing about this technically requires extra mana regeneration - I could make these decisions just operating off my champion's base regen - but if I'm only building raw mana, then more often than not, the correct decision isn't "figure out how to operate with limited but slowly replenishing resources", it's "throw out the spells and then recall so you get back to the fight faster". I don't really have a proper question here or anything - I just want to throw that out there and see if the properties of mana vs mp5 _in extremis_ is something you've thought about, or what gameplay advantages you feel a bigger mana pool provides. I usually trust you guys, and I particularly love what you do, Xypherous (a few years back it was actually my dream to be your intern), so I'm hoping you do have something here to make it actually fun and I'm just not seeing it yet.
> When my core stat is raw mana, I hit that point, find a spot to throw out my two abilities, and then back because I am now 0% effective. Having mana regen as a primary stat gives me a lot more choices to make. I have enough mana for two spells now, and they get out of position - do I drive them out of lane with what I have, or should I wait another 10 seconds for a full combo that might get the kill, but I might not get a position like this again? I actually haven't seen this decision tree as a result of Mana Regeneration due to a couple of factors - but primarily it's one over optimization - Mana Regeneration has a mostly solved pattern: 1. In the early game, you optimize a lot of the time for Mana Effectiveness per point of Mana. Which means that Regeneration goals tend to be somewhere on the order of 'Get enough so I can waveclear the wave.' Mana Regeneration strongly emphasizes a cadenced pattern here - You don't have to do anything in particular - just maintain this consistent spell pattern for as long as you can - and there will be no gaps in your needs. 2. In the late game, where Mana expenditures on wave clear are low (spells are much much more mana efficient due to AP gains) - suddenly there are no further major Mana decisions. You reach sufficiency with regeneration due to the fact that wave clear's drain on mana is spreadout throughout the team - so you just kind of have 'enough.' 3. The level of Mana Regeneration can create the complex decision tree you're talking about - However, we put that decision in purchase decisions and with sufficient level of investment - people generally buy enough regen to never be in that position to begin with. Because it's available in the item system rather than being an immutable core property - people tend to just overbuy to sidestep needing to consider that case. > I don't really have a proper question here or anything - I just want to throw that out there and see if the properties of mana vs mp5 in extremis is something you've thought about, or what gameplay advantages you feel a bigger mana pool provides. The advantage that I see primarily in shifting to flat mana is that I get most of the same gameplay properties (I have a ton of mana and I throw a bunch of spells) - but that other actions in the lane seems to be more meaningful. Recalling becomes a more powerful action. You can adopt a play pattern of burning your mana quickly and quickly recalling and re-engaging. Longer attrition style sieges have a single point that we can nerf (Tear of the Goddess) rather than everyone just moving en-masse to Athene's and accomplishing the same thing. There's also kind of a larger work in terms of defining statistical affinities with power.. Should damage be coupled with high uptime? Of the two, which is more dangerous - healing with high uptime or damage? The decision tree that you are talking about is an interesting one but its one that is intrinsic to mana regeneration rather than requiring the specific combination of 'Offensive damage x mana regeneration.'
Couple other things I didn't see a good place for in the flow of the previous post: Does RoA have the new Catalyst passives, or does it lose that on upgrade? Are you doing anything to avoid FQC becoming a major mage item again? It's not a big AP statstick right now, but I feel like it could become an early investment item like Tear or RoA, but using the gold gen to buy extra AP instead of directly gaining stats over time, while still giving people mana regen that they don't want to stop having. Slightly bigger one: I feel like there's a lot of followup to be done here - you've said that siege mages are underserved, Akali might be sad, you don't know if Rocket Belt will be at all balanceable or not yet, Athene's might fail. That's a lot to keep from slipping through the cracks. Have you considered publically releasing a list of things that you (or the balance team) plan to evaluate and follow up on? You might already be keeping one privately, but it is unfortunately pretty easy to slip up on actually checking your list of things when you don't have hard obligations, while the public would definitely remind you. (The drawback, of course, being, uh... the public would definitely remind you. :P)
> Does RoA have the new Catalyst passives, or does it lose that on upgrade? RoA does have the new Catalyst passive. The passive isn't early game - so all Catalyst upgrades with keep the passive. > Are you doing anything to avoid FQC becoming a major mage item again? It's not a big AP statstick right now, but I feel like it could become an early investment item like Tear or RoA, but using the gold gen to buy extra AP instead of directly gaining stats over time, while still giving people mana regen that they don't want to stop having. We're making a series of sustain changes bot lane to generally reduce the amount of free resources being generated in the bot lane - FQC actually got a tap due to this pass. > You might already be keeping one privately, but it is unfortunately pretty easy to slip up on actually checking your list of things when you don't have hard obligations, while the public would definitely remind you. (The drawback, of course, being, uh... the public would definitely remind you. :P) While I do have an internal list - I'd rather people talk to me about what they feel is off. The worry about releasing something like a list of what I think is off is the priming problem - where you kind of divert attention to what you're worried on rather than what *they're* worried about.
When Black market brawlers was released there were 3 mana regeneration items that built out of lost chapter, each of these promoted a different playstyle depending on what you built. Everyone I spoke to thought these items were very healthy and I beleived they would replace morrelonomicon, this never happened. Is there any chance that we will see these items again? I personally really liked pox arcana and thought it was well designed.
The idea behind releasing Lost Chapter is so that I can use it as a base to make more upgrades. Ideally, I would like that to be a full Tree of items - and you should be comfortable picking up Two Lost Chapter items, for example.
> Rod of Ages > > Recipe Change: Catalyst of Aeons + Needlessly Large Rod + 50 Gold > Total Cost: 3000 --> 2500 > Health / Health Scaling: Unchanged > Ability Power: 80 --> 60 > Ability Power per Stack: 20 --> 20 (Unchanged) > Mana: 400 --> 300 > Mana per Stack: 40 --> 10 > > This incarnation of Rod of Ages has far less Mana total - and a bit less AP. However, the item itself is all about stacking the passive and how early you can get the ball rolling. It has almost zero combine cost - and thus is all about how quickly you can assemble it to benefit from a 500 Health, 100 AP item 10 minutes from now. I really don't like this change. The mana hit seems...overzealous. And will have a huge impact on Aurelion Sol. But I suppose there will be more sources of mana. Still iffy right now. Also, 60+20 does not equal 100. Does it stay at a flat 80 then gets 20 or does it start at 60 and grow to 100? Other than that the changes are interesting. Glad spell vamp is getting axed and Vlad will be balanced accordingly. Really excited for some the hextech stuff.
The AP thing is a typo. My bad. :P As far as the mana hit - yeah, it's pretty aggressive. I'm not actually sure how much Mana a single item should have - as too much Mana and it starts being the main identity of the item that people rush and then want to forget about. Kind of want to move towards a world where if people feel like they need more Mana they have something exciting that they can build to if they feel that pinch. We're probably still a couple of items off of that but part of that requires that each item doesn't fully solve or oversolve your mana when combined.
So if you're getting rid of spell vamp entirely, do you guys plan to change Morgana's passive?
No - just item based spell vamp. Champion based spellvamp can be tuned around the champion's pattern and doesn't interfere with other mages.
The main reason that spell vamp was never bought was because there was only two or three items that had it, all of which were fairly useless on anyone execpt Vlad, if you actually made them useful, like instead of just low ap and vamp, give them mana regen, or defensives or even CDR on them, with the other stats, because the way you have the vamp items made, it's just not worth it.
WoTA actually had a year in which it had MP/5 on it. It still wasn't bought / was fairly problematic during that year *as well*. We've tried so many incarnations of that item - none of them have particularly panned out. You're right in that if we just made a Spell Vamp item completely overpowered - it would be bought - but that's not because Spell Vamp suddenly started to work out - it's just an OP item.
Just a note, Manamune and Muramana already have a Unique Passive called Awe, so having the refund also called that would be quite confusing. Aside from that, I'm worried about giving AP assassins and even tanks more mobility than they already have. It certainly does not look like a mage item; 300 units won't stop a Fizz or Diana from getting to you.
> Just a note, Manamune and Muramana already have a Unique Passive called Awe, so having the refund also called that would be quite confusing. I renamed all their passives to Awe. It's kind of like Spellblade - they just all have a version of Awe that has something to do with stat scaling and mana refunding.
Thoughts on how this will affect blue buff? With mages having easier access to 40% cdr, and what seems like an absurd amount of sustain by combining catalyst + tear passives, blue will feel less important mid - late game (even though it kind of already does). Red is an absolute necessity that can make or break a lategame teamfight, raw damage aside, by allowing much easier kiting and finishing off potential escapees with the burn. Blue on the other hand, has this boring pattern of either being completely useless, or just "okay" (if you need the 10%) after 25-30 mins.
The focus on Max Mana being the core of offensive mage purchases also means that Blue's regeneration based on Max Mana becomes a far more noteable objective. Additionally, being close to CDR means a greater chance of being at 30% and getting everything you need for a prolonged siege (that's limited by the length of the buff.)
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Will the new passive on Tear interfere with the new passive on ROA?
Nope. Refunding the mana doesn't reduce your mana cost - it just means that you get the mana back after you've spent it. They should fully synergize.
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Do you have planned changes for {{champion:8}} that will disincentivize buying Hextech Gunblade on him after this patch rolls through? He pays 1100g extra gold but he still gets the 15% Vamp in the unique healing passive that he abuses so heavily and will abuse even further with Visage healing buffs. He also still gets 80 AP. Loses the CDR but does that matter when {{item:3001}} + {{item:3157}} are giving him CDR now? Sure, the 40 AD is next to useless, but there are cases in this game where champs are buying items they don't use all the stats on ({{champion:157}} with {{item:3078}} for example) because they simply use the item effectively enough to warrant buying it, and I believe Vald would fall under this category after these changes. I'd say the extra gold is almost even worth paying because of the extra active he gets. More burst (which everyone loves) and it even amps of his R, unless that's being changed. The only case against buying this item that I can think of is that the build path sucks with Cutlass. Is that enough to warrant not buying it? The only reason it's currently not bought is because WotA does the same thing but for cheaper. But with this WotA is removed and H-Gblade is the only option, an item that is also being buffed. Do you think this will create a balance problem?
I don't think it'll create a balance problem. If Vladimir really wanted more health sustain - he'd likely go into Spirit Visage like he's done before. Alternatively, if Vladimir goes Gunblade - the fact that he doesn't make full use out of the AD should mean that the net effectiveness of the item is tempered. He synergizes a lot with it - but doesn't use it to 100% - and so I think the net result might be okay. Of course, if he sucks *unless* he gets Gunblade - that would be a balancing concern - hopefully the update will be able to get more sane healing numbers now that it doesn't have to compensate for a surprise 15% Spell Vamp.
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In terms of counterplay to the item, don't you think an instant nuke with a slow attached with 700 range is going over the top? The slow projectile gives time for the receiving end to react before they get jumped on. Cutlass is an instant projectile because the range is so short on it, but Hextech Gunblade isn't. Imagine, you're a squishy just wandering around in mid, and the moment you step within 700 range of Hextech Gunblade, BAM, you're instantly slowed and possibly nuked a few moments later. The range is what's valuable here because Gunblade's active serves as a tool to catch someone out of position. Nerfing the range of the active would defeat the purpose of it's catching ability. Have you considered lowering the slow duration or slow strength because of the now instant projectile? Or perhaps just make it a slow projectile again?
> The range is what's valuable here because Gunblade's active serves as a tool to catch someone out of position. Nerfing the range of the active would defeat the purpose of it's catching ability. Have you considered lowering the slow duration or slow strength because of the now instant projectile? > Or perhaps just make it a slow projectile again? An interesting concern to bring up - I'll certainly be happy to adjust the power level of the item down if this proves problematic. I'll make a note to mention that as the first follow-up note for Gunblade. Likely - lowering the duration would be my call here - as I've been noticing a distinct increase in the number of chain-slowing scenarios I've been seeing.
Um..... Morgan Passive? Spellvamp taken away, any rework for her passive?
Just removing Spell Vamp from items - not champions. We can balance a champion's innate spell vamp.
Are there any champions you feel might be left out to dry with the item changes? or some that will receive significant power spikes with new itemization? just curious what you've found with your preliminary testing
There are a couple holes that I'd like to address as the season progresses. My gut reaction is that I want to create an item that synergize with Artillery characters or can enable mages to play more of an Artillery role. Additionally, some sort of light MR option that builds from Lost Chapter would be nice - although I'm still trying to figure out what exact pattern should benefit the most from that - that would mostly be from a 'high mana cost' vs. 'low mana cost' matchup kind of control - Perhaps something that is good on Control style mages? Unsure on that front. I do want to use Lost Chapter as a preliminary branching point for a couple of offensive mage items though - hence the creation of the new component with a pretty spammy offense pattern.
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Thanks for the new updates. I am always excited in one way or another to see new changes to league. Though I don't think you are going about this in the right way. Sure, some of these items look great and all, but the root of this problem is the lack of viable options for building ap and against ap as well. **The Biggest Problem With AP's Right Now** Overall, this seems like yet another nerf to AP in general, and I really don't like that at all. The largest issue in my opinion with the state of AP in the game is the absolute famine of magic resist items and viable ap items that are in the game right now. Specifically talking about mr, you literally mentioned 3 items, {{item:3065}} , {{item:3102}} , and {{item:3001}}. Why do we not have more items to guard against AP? I guess it doesn't matter at this point because most AP items are slightly on the weak side IMO, but it would be nice if I actually had a reason to build some MR, besides that once in a blue moon game where you have a super fed enemy lux who can 1 shot you because she's 15/0 and has mejais. The lack of depth the ap system is a big problem right now and I would love for this to be fixed. Solution. Add more MR items, and up some power on AP items. This will add more depth the the game, bring more AP's back into the meta, and allow good counterplay for opposing champs by adding more MR options they can choose from, whether they be, squishy adc's or ap's, or brusiers and tanks. One final note to add. {{item:3089}} right now is in terrible shape. I almost never buy it because of the absolute ridiculous upfront cost this item has. You need to fix this pretty badly. TL;DR Please add more options for MR items, and up some power on AP items, oh and please fix {{item:3089}}.
> This will add more depth the the game, bring more AP's back into the meta, and allow good counterplay for opposing champs by adding more MR options they can choose from, whether they be, squishy adc's or ap's, or brusiers and tanks. While this approach seems sound - unfortunately, the item system is gold-driven rather than choice-driven. Because you don't just get to pick options for free - the options are performance based - the item system doesn't work very well in this kind of arms-race scenario that you're setting out. Ultimately, the people you benefit are people who don't sacrifice anything and can rush MR and AP characters that can burst kill every other type of champion. The problem with the approach of 'Hey, let's just pump a bunch more MR and AP into the item system' is that at the end of the day, items and gold **aren't** guaranteed progression. The more you force players to **need** MR and the more you force players on the opposing side to damage race MR by having **way more AP** basically encourages an incredibly binary pattern of whoever can complete their first item has a huge advantage over their opponent. Strong MR items and then buffing AP items don't bring AP back into the meta - they bring whoever can rush those items without sacrificing too much personal power - punish utility mages and the like with low AP ratios and makes the gold snowball arms race even more pronounced. Multiplying everyone's numbers by 10 doesn't make the game have any more counterplay - it simply makes the binary nature of whoever got their series of 10x multipliers first hold a domineering position.
Hi Xypherous, I know I'm very late to the party but I remember you talking about an Ohmwrecker rework 5 months ago. You tried creating a version that replaced champions autoattacks on structures and monsters with a laser, and I found it a very interesting idea to help fighting the morbid reliance on adc in the botlane. Was that scrapped?
I have not found the time to iterate on that unfortunately. The choice structure for supports is still kind of murky right now - likely because they just have so many (good? required? unfortunately necessary?) first couple of items.
Honestly, I'm really digging the idea for Catalyst of Aeons. I think its a clever way to give sustain to mages that otherwise do not have any outside the standard lifesteal, spellvamp, and tanky regen items. I have one concern about the _"15% of mana spent gained as health"_. Do you think 15% is too little throughout a standard 30-40 minute game. If we assume most spells cost 60-100 mana per spell, that's only a health regen of 9-15 hp per spell. In the early game (say pre-6) that's pretty decent, but towards late game (lvl 18) it really falls off since everyone's base health is at least 1700ish (Not to mention that some champions have spells that scale down with level). Granted, you build that into {{item:3027}} (and that gives you great stats), but the damage has been nerfed and its hard to justify keeping it late game. Which sucks, since you spent so much time scaling the item. (I guess the same problem with {{item:3800}}) **Possible Solution IMO**: _"15-50% of mana spent gained as health (scales with level)"_. This way you could justify Catalyst items late game as a AP bruiser/engange item. I really want to build off of this clever sustain idea. Would this work? or would this be OP? P.S. 15-50% is just an arbritary scale I thought of for champions I like to play, but it can and should be changed to better match everyone
> Possible Solution IMO: "15-50% of mana spent gained as health (scales with level)". This way you could justify Catalyst items late game as a AP bruiser/engange item. I really want to build off of this clever sustain idea. Would this work? or would this be OP? P.S. 15-50% is just an arbritary scale I thought of for champions I like to play, but it can and should be changed to better match everyone I can also just increase the %'s on the completed items (Rod/Glory/Frost Cannon) if it turns out that Aeon's numbers are unsuited for the late game. I don't think you need level scaling here - as mana costs do increase a bit over the course of the game.
Yep, that works. I was going through champion stats for common RoA users, and most of their abilities have increased mana costs they levels up. So you're right, scaling the %'s would not be needed. Thanks for addressing my concerns:) Do you have further plans for {{item:3800}} ? Do you think it will come back into popularity with new Catalyst changes?
> Do you have further plans for {{item:3800}} ? Do you think it will come back into popularity with new Catalyst changes? There are fairly severe game health concerns with that item. We might bring it back into vogue - but we'd probably have to do something like strip the ally haste boost out of it and make it primarily about slowing the enemy down for your allies to catch up. Then again, Darius. There definitely needs to be followup work before we'll allow it to be strong.
Hi! Can't wait to try new items... just a thing bothers me : you practically stated that {{item:3174}} is an item for an utility mage who lost his lane.. There are no plans on making it a viable choice if you want to build more towards utility.. without making it automatically loose your lane? The problem with this item is that, being a key sustain item, it's supposed to be the first thing you buy, but this will automatically shove you out of your lane, having way less stats. ( Right now if I'm planning a raw utility build in mid-lane I'd go for {{item:3504}} , but for the time I buy it I'm already done with my lane-enemy so this doesn't put me behind. Right now Athene is not buyable, despite its utility, I have the feeling your lane will be automatically lost once you spend on it, making absolutely no use of the passive so early and having the stat of a first item support ( less actually).. the only possible way I see to make it work is buying it after a {{item:3092}} , that you can actually use...but this would make emerge another balance problem, wouldn't it?
> There are no plans on making it a viable choice if you want to build more towards utility.. without making it automatically loose your lane? My assumption when I posted that is more so that - no one really wants to build more towards utility if they can help it. They're generally forced to build into utility when it's become clear that they've lost the damage race. I'm not sure how this item functions when you are crushing in lane and decide to swap into utility. Hrm - I'll have to dive more into that case when I get the time.
I'm not a huge fan of the changes made to Athenes. As a midlane mage main (Veigar mostly), if I'm playing against another mage I really liked buying an item that offered both MR and Mana so I can kill two birds with one stone. Now the Athenes passive is only really useful for supports/mages that offer a heal or shield. As Veigar (or Brand, VelKoz, Azir, Ziggs) I couldn't take advantage of the current passive.
> if I'm playing against another mage I really liked buying an item that offered both MR and Mana so I can kill two birds with one stone. Well, yes - that's the function. It's also why we've traditionally been unhappy whenever Grail has been popular and we tend to keep the item pretty weak.
Just wondering, there is no changes to the mastery which provides mana regeneration based on missing mana correct? (The one that functions like a mini chalice passive on live)
I don't think we have anything functional planned for it. I do know that many masteries are having their values adjusted to address the surplus of sustain they've been seeing bot lane.
i really dont like the ability power cuts. yeah the items get cheaper but that means again, that most mages won't have a lategame because everyone and everything can tank the little damage they do. it is already superhard to get through the tanks because they wont die and simultaneously do a good amount of damage. i also dont get why it is such a bad thing to have "infinite mana" you actually have to invest a huge amount of gold first without any damage increase. while other champions dont even have mana and can build damage right away. i always liked ROA for being a ball of stats item and it would have been perfect with the new catalyst item because the one we have atm is boring af. also my cassio is sad that wota is gone
I'll be working on a set of changelists to figure out how I can get roughly ~600 G and 30 AP back into their final builds. Likely this will involve some Morello / Codex / Zhonya's AP shifts. However, I suspect that the current problem is that we've increased the gold cap on tank itemization by more than is healthy with the Juggernaut item changes and the updates since then - and I don't want to go overboard on this given that I know Merc Scimitar / Maw and other changes are going out soon. > i always liked ROA for being a ball of stats item It's.. still a ball of stats? It's not quite as big of a ball of stats, but it's still 100 AP, 500 Health and 400 Mana. :P
I actually think the removal of spellvamp is such a bad thing to do. This is just like alot of other items through league history that've been removed due to them not having a wide use and dedicated place within the game. If I were to use an example, we have champions like teemo who are obviously not viable within competitive play and certainly not some high elo power pick but are still loved by the community for their use in casual play and fun times. If an item/champion/ or stat in the game does not have it's place in a higher tier of play and is only used within casual play then I think it should be balanced and maintained around that very idea of casual play rather than discarding it for not being used.
> If an item/champion/ or stat in the game does not have it's place in a higher tier of play and is only used within casual play then I think it should be balanced and maintained around that very idea of casual play rather than discarding it for not being used. It's not that the stat or item had a place in high tiers of play or low tiers of play. It's that this stat in the itemization system has created situations where we have to make sure that the early games of any characters who had any potential access to it basically terrible. Effectively, what this means is that in order to balance it for high tiers of play - it has to be absolutely terrible in low tiers of play. This wasn't 'Spell Vamp' wasn't balance-able at higher tiers of play - this was - Well, that means that this champion has absolutely crush or get destroyed in the first 1200 Gold of the game - because otherwise, they have (duo) infinite resources. We've tried to fix this in various forms over 4 years - but the accumulated damage to champions thus far hasn't been worth it. Spell Vamp via the item system has a serious problem in that it becomes linked to gold.
Genuinely curious: What makes lifesteal different?
Think about how many ways there are to apply lifesteal. Wait - actually there isn't. Basic attacks is it. You don't have to worry about whether or not the attack is AoE or not. You don't really have to worry about whether or not the attack costs resources or if it's infinitely repeatable or whether it refunds itself. It's free. It scales. It gets applied to one target at a time, slowly - generally pretty consistently. Physical Spellvamp - on the other hand - does get into the same kinds of questions as Spell Vamp does - but it does have the nice balancing point in that it stems from a life steal item *first* and thus kind of curbs the net variation that it can have.
> [{quoted}](name=Xypherous,realm=PBE,application-id=2EAF660193FA3B668D7234B3AEBB530C5AB7F651,discussion-id=79cto3EB,comment-id=00b50000,timestamp=2016-04-08T20:06:22.679+0000) > > It's not that the stat or item had a place in high tiers of play or low tiers of play. It's that this stat in the itemization system has created situations where we have to make sure that the early games of any characters who had any potential access to it basically terrible. > > Effectively, what this means is that in order to balance it for high tiers of play - it has to be absolutely terrible in low tiers of play. This wasn't 'Spell Vamp' wasn't balance-able at higher tiers of play - this was - Well, that means that this champion has absolutely crush or get destroyed in the first 1200 Gold of the game - because otherwise, they have (duo) infinite resources. > > We've tried to fix this in various forms over 4 years - but the accumulated damage to champions thus far hasn't been worth it. Spell Vamp via the item system has a serious problem in that it becomes linked to gold. So does the balance team plan to add any viable AP options that are geared towards empowering champions with built in sustain like vlad and morgana to replace spellvamp? Also will the buffs to vladimir mentioned in the post be actual buffs or is an upcoming rework?If it is a rework what scale of rework is it? As always you're free to say no comment on those questions if you want.
> So does the balance team plan to add any viable AP options that are geared towards empowering champions with built in sustain like vlad and morgana to replace spellvamp? We're not removing Morgana's innate Spell Vamp. That's balanced because it's not in the item system. We can ensure that Morgana has the right amount of Spell Vamp just tuning her passive. We're getting rid of Spell Vamp **in the item system** so we don't have to worry about its combinatoric effect across so many types of damage patterns. Vladimir has been tuned around assuming there has been no spell vamp items in the item system. I'm not going to talk about update details for champions because it's honestly not my place - apologies.
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1st of all I'd like to thank you for the time you spent answering, it really means a lot. 2nd I'd just like to pop a reminder - We'll probably yell, overreact and some may go too far in fear that the changes might break the game - Because we love the game too damn much and we care DEEPLY about whether it's getting better or not. As for the questions about the items: - Any plans about making an armor item? AP vs AP seems fair, you have a lot of options, ap with mr, ap with health, etc. AD vs AP however seems (forgive my french) unfair as shit when the AD can buy full ad /adpen if they don't feel threatened, lifesteal for sustain, maw, mercurial or mercury treads for mr + usefull passives as opposed to an AP who can build a zhonya, and that's it. We could really use another item build out of seekers or an alternative. - Thoughts on removing armor from zhonya and making it about the active entirely? I've noticed you talking about zhonya's balancing and it's main role is helping against assassins of any kind, not just AD, and (yeah i'm biased) we could really use an ap armor item that's not zhonya. - Does the PBE show people capping off the 45% cd often with the new changes? I found it hard to reach the 45% cap through just 10% items, and the cd is tacked on such items that people that want the 45% cd the most are buying items that work suboptimally to get it most of the time. That's me done I think, I'm REALLY excited for the new hextech line, it might be hard to balance but I hope you find a way since the items seem really fun.
> Any plans about making an armor item? Not at the moment. I believe we're actually pretty unhappy with the current state of both Merc and Maw at the moment - so before immediately rushing into making mirrors of them - I think we'd rather get those items into a state we're happy with. > Thoughts on removing armor from zhonya and making it about the active entirely? I'm not a huge fan on this. Without defensive statistics - Zhonya's becomes more active item defense for burst mages. The fact that Armor exists on Zhonya's means there's no heavy damage route that is also burst immune. The fact that you have to divert some of your gold into passive defense helps Zhonya's and other powerful effects like it to not be competely overbearing on burst patterns - as they're giving up some kill power. > Does the PBE show people capping off the 45% cd often with the new changes? The items aren't online yet in the PBE - we're working through it.
Is there any chance that Lost Chapter also integrates the lost passive from Athene's where you get mana back on k/a? Seems to me that Lost Chapter - and Morellonomicon by extent - is only good whilst leveling up as it's a cheap chunk of very good stats but basically loses a large portion of it when you're level 18.
> Is there any chance that Lost Chapter also integrates the lost passive from Athene's where you get mana back on k/a? I do want to find a place for this passive again - I think a Lost Chapter passive with the Kill/Assist mana passive would be very cool - just what 'else' does it do is more up in the air.
Black market brawlers had a lot of items with really unique effects and uses. Do you plan on putting some of the items in the game. Especially the tricksters glass, Puppeteer, Mirage Blade, Martyr's Gambit. Honestly though these changes that are coming are good. But no where near interesting. They won't add anything new to the game, just make it a_ tiny _ bit more diverse. I had great hopes for BMB, but only Dead Man's came out of it. Which while interesting is probably the least interesting out of all of the items.
> Especially the tricksters glass, Puppeteer, Mirage Blade, Martyr's Gambit. Trickster's Glass has problems in that it changes the genre of League of Legends. We generally find the effect fun but it'd be kind of like adding the Spy class of TF2 to every game. At the end of it - I believe this effect is best suited to be the defining feature of a champion - rather than freely available to all. > Puppeteer / Mirage Blade Puppeteer proved to be fairly hard to use for most players - the active CC was powerful but the mindshare of this item tested somewhat poorly. Mirage Blade doubly so. Most of the feedback that we had on Mirage Blade was that - while the active was only somewhat problematic from Game Health - managing the active consistently proved to be incredibly stressful as a common point of feedback. > BMB (In General) We intentionally broke a lot of rules designing these items - as we knew it was a temporary mode. The power level on a lot of these items were also pushed massively. Fleshripper, in particular, was absurd. A balanced version of this item couldn't capture the actual intent of the item - as it had to cost so much gold as to make it uneconomical to execute the pattern to begin with. :P While some of the ideas were interesting - most of them proved fairly hard to solve - mostly due to the fact that there's only a certain amount of mindshare or upkeep that made the game interesting.
Not sure if I missed my chance at getting a reply from you. I've tried to write a post several times, but it always gets much too wordy. This time, I'll just get straight to the point, and if you want me to elaborate on anything, I'll do so happily. 1: I do not want mana regen to be effectively removed from damage type mages. Specifically, this will harm Xerath, Lux, Ziggs, and probably more champions that I haven't thought of yet. The siege playstyle should not require blue buff to be possible. Raw mana items already tend to give more stats. 2: The lowered amount of AP available will make the already weak late game scaling of mages that much worse. It will also reduce the value of Rabadon's Deathcap as the passive will have less AP to work with. At the same time, this could drive Luden's and Rylai's into the must buy territory. Perhaps consider adding more high AP items to add build diversity. 3: As others have said, reducing the price of Zhonya's is good, as well as making it into more of a utility item with the CDR. At the same time, the increased CD on the active will be extremely harmful to champions who need it to take advantage of their ults (Fid, Kennen, Morgana) will be hit hard, not to mention Zed will be even more annoying to deal with. 4: You say that Rod of Ages is all about stacking the passive, and I agree with you; however, you are also reducing the value of having a completed Rod. Right now, finally completing the Rod is a major turning point in the game; it is a sign of a champion finally hitting their stride. With this change, it seems far less impressive. I understand that it is a bit strong right now, but maybe emphasize its weaknesses rather than nerf its endgame. How about just reducing the base values on it, and compensating so the stacks give more? This emphasizes that until it gets some stacks, it'll be lackluster. At the same time, it makes getting those stacks even more meaningful. In the end, the most important thing to me is I don't want to lose the fun, active playstyle of 40/45% CDR with mana regen on utility and siege mages. They are the epitome of what a mage truly should be (in my opinion), and this is such an active playstyle that I don't want to disappear. Ok I think that was everything. Even though I still didn't want to be to wordy, you can see me losing control over that as I went through the points... Sorry for the long post. I'm super excited for mages to gain more options. I just don't want to lose too much of the options we already have in exchange for that.
> The lowered amount of AP available will make the already weak late game scaling of mages that much worse. It will also reduce the value of Rabadon's Deathcap as the passive will have less AP to work with A couple of major points here: 1. I'll be looking at a series of changelists to see where I can add gold back into these set of changes - mostly due to Morello looking somewhat weak compared to alternatives. 2. In a world where item prices are high and base AP is high - we've actually just seen Mages not been able to complete or buy Deathcap, leaving it out of the possible item builds entirely. We know that Deathcap is at a fair price for the amount of AP we want it to be giving out and the multiplicative power of it. More than anything 'end game AP' is capped by the inability to go after high AP items because your core needs are so expensive to get. 3. I'm fairly certain that this problem isn't due to the AP cap of mages - it's to the vastly inflated gold cap that MR has had since the season began. Basically, the high-end defense potential of fighters and various classes have gone up incredibly in terms of hitting mages - and these items have been tuned to be able to be purchased fairly early without a ton of tradeoffs (they are all fairly generic in terms of defense.) AP and MR will always be a damage race - but inflating both values continuously just means that everyone else in the game blows up at a touch. It's unsustainable to keep inflating the arms race. > In the end, the most important thing to me is I don't want to lose the fun, active playstyle of 40/45% CDR with mana regen on utility and siege mages. They are the epitome of what a mage truly should be (in my opinion), and this is such an active playstyle that I don't want to disappear. In practice, we've found that this playstyle is pretty much only fun and active for the person who is the artillery mage rather than anyone on the enemy team. It's 'active' in that you are casting a bunch of spells. It's incredibly passive as you don't have to *do* anything to succeed other than fling spells at your opponents while you are farther than they can possibly engage on. If you want to spec into this kind of playstyle - Tear of the Goddess should be the Mana item that you go down as that provides for the same type of circumstances at a more reasonable disadvantage - the lack of defensive stats and the fact that it turns on later in the game. The shift to Flat Mana also makes it a lot easier for us to provide CDR - as we know that - even if we grant you more CDR - there is a balancing factor always in play. With Regeneration, flat CDR just means more harass uptime. See also: Aram Poke Comp.
Are there any playstyles that are 'fun and active' for the person on the enemy team? Even the ones that should, theoretically, like Fiora's passive, seem more frustrating than anything. I understand you have to have some consideration for the person you're playing against, or the game as a whole just isn't fun, but I don't see how siege artillery mages are any less fun to play against than your average disengage support, or a hook champ, or an assassin, etc.
> but I don't see how siege artillery mages are any less fun to play against than your average disengage support, or a hook champ, or an assassin, etc. A disengage support cannot *win* by standing there. He can certainly prevent your ability to engage on him - but he doesn't win by passively non-interacting - he can only defend against your attacks. A hook champion automatically puts himself in combat range when he lands his ability. Blitz can be a nightmare to fight against - but the instant Blitz hooks the opposing fighter or tank - he's made a fairly huge mistake in giving the enemy free engage. Conversely, Nautilus / Amumu / Thresh all put themselves into reach of the enemy team when they engage. Assassin is likely the closest comparison here to Artillery. Both classes seek to offensively engage on the opponent without any possible action from the enemy. Generally, most assassins operate in melee range - which is inherently more interactive. That's not usually how it works out a lot of the time, given the various ups and downs we've had in assassin balance - but melee tends to invite some level of interactivity. Poke mages and artillery mages seek to never interact with the opponent. Spells go one direction, from them - outside of your range - to your face. They seek to attrition and rarely engage and their pattern means that they will win so long as they can continue to apply said pressure.
I'm not saying that disengage supports can win entirely on their own (unless the enemy team gets so frustrated with Janna denying their kills they surrender) but I was objecting that they were 'fun and active' to play against. Active, maybe, but they're all around denying the enemy team the chance to do anything; I can't see how that's fun to play against. And yes, if Blitz messes up, he gives the enemy tank/bruiser a free dash to his carries. But if Blitz DOESN'T mess up, then he instantly wins a teamfight because WHOOPS your fed ADC just died before the silence ran out. Again: It's not 'fun' to constantly have to worry about a single hook deciding a teamfight; no matter how badly a hook champ plays, all they need to do is win once. (Also, I don't see how Amumu is a hook champ.) It's 'active' in that you're usually constantly worried about that one hook, I guess. Melee range is not 'inherently more interactive' when your interaction is 'figure out how to survive in the next two seconds.' Your options are, generally, to hammer on your Zhonya's button and hope your team can deal with them in the meantime, or asking yourself 'if I flash, will I die to ignite/Zed ult anyway?' And that's assuming the assassin isn't Rengar or a fed enemy who kills you the instant you know they're there; that's just not fun at all. Yes, if they can keep applying that pressure, they will win. I don't see how this is a problem when you have burst mages and assassins who, in all honesty, have the exact same issue of non-interactivity but that's better because you could theoretically fight back while you're CC'd or bursted before you can hit your Hourglass button, I guess. The counterplay to a siege mage should be to flank them or otherwise engage upon them besides 'just run at them'. If you're playing their game, of course you're gonna lose.
> I'm not saying that disengage supports can win entirely on their own (unless the enemy team gets so frustrated with Janna denying their kills they surrender) but I was objecting that they were 'fun and active' to play against. Active, maybe, but they're all around denying the enemy team the chance to do anything; I can't see how that's fun to play against. I'll present to you one of two scenarios: 1. You are silenced and blinded. 2. I am shielded. There reason why #2 is more fun than #1 is that you still get to do your full range of actions. Even if they might not be the explicit result you desire - I am not constraining your ability to function overtly - I am simply negating their effects. Now - this will obviously become frustrating after a certain point - but they're not actively suppressing your actions - they are managing your net effect. You can still play your abilities. Freedom and flexibility is a tricky thing to measure, of course - and there are obviously degrees of this (Soraka tends to be more frustrating due to her ability to reverse your earlier actions) - but there's a very big difference between my imposing my will upon you so you have to respond - and me trying to block what you're doing. > Again: It's not 'fun' to constantly have to worry about a single hook deciding a teamfight; no matter how badly a hook champ plays, all they need to do is win once. I would claim that 'No matter how badly a hook champ plays' is wrong - because if there are cases which you can easily point out that hooking the wrong champion will cost your team the game. That does imply that there is some kind of lower bounds to how badly you can play and still survive. > Melee range is not 'inherently more interactive' when your interaction is 'figure out how to survive in the next two seconds.' Your options are, generally, to hammer on your Zhonya's button and hope your team can deal with them in the meantime Individually, this may be true - but simply being in range of the opponent's abilities means that those abilities can be used. While you may lose individual agency - overall, there are people on your team that can do something about it. Recall, this is an argument about how many people in the game are frustrated at this pattern and who actually benefits. The be-all end-all pattern of an artillery saps all agency from everyone in the game. While an assassin or melee can be intensely frustrating for an individual (and I do mention how they come close to each other) - in the context of a team fight, they can only practically suppress one person - while the typical poke comp stresses 5. > And that's assuming the assassin isn't Rengar or a fed enemy who kills you the instant you know they're there; that's just not fun at all. I'm not going to state whether I think Rengar is better or worse. However, having something terrible in the game doesn't justify that we support more terrible things. That's kind of like saying - Well, someone was punched in the face last week - so why can't I punch you in the face right now? Let's just... try to mitigate the face punching overall. > The counterplay to a siege mage should be to flank them or otherwise engage upon them besides 'just run at them'. If you're playing their game, of course you're gonna lose. This is true - assuming that the objective or the combat space is flankable - or that you can take the time to flank them. Traditionally, when this is a problem it is around terrain or combat grounds that these options are unavailable - Inhibitor and Inner towers tend to suffer from this. There are situations of the game where this is the only game you can play, so to speak. If all artillery mages tried to do was poke you out of Baron pit - we'd be fine. Ultimately though - I see most Artillery mages switching to Tear of the Goddess if they want this endless end-game pattern. Blue Buff will ensure 60+ seconds worth of siege if your Artillery gets it, for example. Both of these are cases are created if Artillery Mages cannot expect to become self-sufficient infinite siege with light investment. This opens up far more opportunities to blunt or interact with them either during their gold acquisition phase - or when they are contesting for third-party objectives to enable their successful sieges. I believe this overall gameplay is healthier when Attrition can be a factor in this - where you dodging spells or the mage landing their spells actually has a meaningful impact.
> [{quoted}](name=Xypherous,realm=PBE,application-id=2EAF660193FA3B668D7234B3AEBB530C5AB7F651,discussion-id=79cto3EB,comment-id=00a700000000000000000000,timestamp=2016-04-12T01:49:18.661+0000) > > I'll present to you one of two scenarios: > > 1. You are silenced and blinded. > > 2. I am shielded. > > There reason why #2 is more fun than #1 is that you still get to do your full range of actions. Even if they might not be the explicit result you desire - I am not constraining your ability to function overtly - I am simply negating their effects. > > Now - this will obviously become frustrating after a certain point - but they're not actively suppressing your actions - they are managing your net effect. You can still play your abilities. > > Freedom and flexibility is a tricky thing to measure, of course - and there are obviously degrees of this (Soraka tends to be more frustrating due to her ability to reverse your earlier actions) - but there's a very big difference between my imposing my will upon you so you have to respond - and me trying to block what you're doing. Then why is Soraka the only champion that I've actually gotten people calling me cancer for picking? This is partially because your examples are really bad (no one in this game has both a silence AND a blind), but I really think that your thoughts on how frustrating the champs that 'manage your net effect', as you put it, are wrong. Soraka, Janna, Lulu, etc. are all very unfun to play against. > I would claim that 'No matter how badly a hook champ plays' is wrong - because if there are cases which you can easily point out that hooking the wrong champion will cost your team the game. > > That does imply that there is some kind of lower bounds to how badly you can play and still survive. Fine. You're right. There are two situations in which a hook champ can play badly and lose: hooking the wrong champ, and just straight up missing. What I meant by 'no matter how badly you play' was that your champs effectiveness has very little to do with how well you did that game; you don't go from 'good to bad', depending on your items, you go from 'I can walk up to you and use a different ability before I hook so you can't escape' and 'I have to hook from the rear.' A blitz can miss every hook in the game but one and still singlehandedly win the game for his team, something very few other champs can do. > Individually, this may be true - but simply being in range of the opponent's abilities means that those abilities can be used. While you may lose individual agency - overall, there are people on your team that can do something about it. > > Recall, this is an argument about how many people in the game are frustrated at this pattern and who actually benefits. > > The be-all end-all pattern of an artillery saps all agency from everyone in the game. While an assassin or melee can be intensely frustrating for an individual (and I do mention how they come close to each other) - in the context of a team fight, they can only practically suppress one person - while the typical poke comp stresses 5. Really? Because I've been focusing on how 'fun' someone is to counterplay. In any case, again, I think you're underestimating how stressful it is to have to peel an assassin, especially something like Kha that is THEORETICALLY peelable, but requires getting close to the assassin. And, of course, losing a teamfight because of a single pick that you couldn't have prevented is not fun at all. > I'm not going to state whether I think Rengar is better or worse. However, having something terrible in the game doesn't justify that we support more terrible things. > > That's kind of like saying - Well, someone was punched in the face last week - so why can't I punch you in the face right now? Let's just... try to mitigate the face punching overall. I'd say it's more like saying 'we're trying to cut down on cases of face punching in the future' while not stopping known face punchers because they have fun punching people in the face. > This is true - assuming that the objective or the combat space is flankable - or that you can take the time to flank them. Traditionally, when this is a problem it is around terrain or combat grounds that these options are unavailable - Inhibitor and Inner towers tend to suffer from this. There are situations of the game where this is the only game you can play, so to speak. > > If all artillery mages tried to do was poke you out of Baron pit - we'd be fine. > > Ultimately though - I see most Artillery mages switching to Tear of the Goddess if they want this endless end-game pattern. Blue Buff will ensure 60+ seconds worth of siege if your Artillery gets it, for example. > > Both of these are cases are created if Artillery Mages cannot expect to become self-sufficient infinite siege with light investment. This opens up far more opportunities to blunt or interact with them either during their gold acquisition phase - or when they are contesting for third-party objectives to enable their successful sieges. > > I believe this overall gameplay is healthier when Attrition can be a factor in this - where you dodging spells or the mage landing their spells actually has a meaningful impact. And I, theoretically, wouldn't have a problem with this...if these weren't the only champs that had this pattern. Supports, including most of the hook champs, don't have to worry about running out of mana with these new rules. ADs have essence reaver and/or Muramana, so you have to constantly dodge Piercing Light/Boomerang Blade/Accelerated Shock Blasts all day... I don't see why Ziggs constantly clearing waves with E and Q is bad but Sivir doing it with Q and W is okay. It just seems hypocritical and unfair.
> Then why is Soraka the only champion that I've actually gotten people calling me cancer for picking? I couldn't tell you why anecdotally this is true - she is one of the characters that I call out for actually reversing the effects of whatever you do - rather than mitigating it, however. > Soraka, Janna, Lulu, etc. are all very unfun to play against. Let's say I concede this point here - it still wouldn't mean that artillery champions should have this strength either. > I'd say it's more like saying 'we're trying to cut down on cases of face punching in the future' while not stopping known face punchers because they have fun punching people in the face. If it's a complaint about prioritization - I can sympathize with this. I know that I have my fair share of champion classes that I'm particularly annoyed by that I would rather address - however, that wasn't the target group for this patch update. We decided to work on mages and so I'm taking the opportunity to try to address some of the unmaintainable aspects of the classes' itemization that I see. If we worked on Assassins, even if siege mages or support mages were annoying as hell - I would be doing the same - and looking at Assassin work or support work. Part of this is due to an easier ability to tune things related to each other if they change close together - part of this is just that it just has some synergy. > Supports, including most of the hook champs, don't have to worry about running out of mana with these new rules. Actually, the hook champions would likely not have an association with MP/5 given the above statements. Hook champions tend to be more selfish rather than team supportive - and many of them are more closely aligned to tank itemization (flat mana) than support magae one (MP/5). Given that MP/5 + CDR are bound to mostly items that support your team - the common support hooks are more closely aligned to Mana/Tank itemization rather than MP/5 Support Mage itemization. As far as mage supports go - by binding their itemization tightly to MP/5 - it also means that we have a fairly strong balancing lever for how 'infinite' is 'infinite.' Simply because they're the ones with the most access to MP/5 doesn't mean that we have to provide them with the same level of sustain before. We know there's a glut of sustain in the bot lane and there's some light associated changes to bring that more in line. > I don't see why Ziggs constantly clearing waves with E and Q is bad but Sivir doing it with Q and W is okay. It just seems hypocritical and unfair. Potentially - but taking this stance means that you don't fix anything unless you delete everything at once. It's one of those stances that is more morally defensible at the slight expense of practicality. It impedes any kind progress by essentially blocking any iterative steps towards a better state of the game. To be perfectly realistic - it's likely Ziggs will still constantly clear waves with E and Q. He'll just do it with Tear instead and run out after 90 seconds (or more with Blue Buff) - but it required more of a specialization into this play-style rather than the default mana item he gets at 2300 gold and thus easier to balance and ensure there was a sufficient cost.
Since when has sieging been a toxic aspect to the game? When did mana regen become such an enormous problem? I have heard nothing of the sort until reading your posts here. ARAM is not at all accurate of a game on Summoner's Rift. The reason poke is so ridiculous on ARAM is there is no possibility of flanking the opponent or having someone counter the siege by pushing other lanes. Since this seems to be the direction the game will be going (regardless of my opinion), can you at least add more items with mana, AP, and CDR? I like Morellonomicon, but I don't want it to be my only option. At the very least, more items with AP and CDR. I know that the Hextech Rocket Belt does give AP and CDR, but I'm not sure that fits artillery style mages all that well. Perhaps add another utility mage item like what you've done with Zhonya's, but make it a MR version. It wouldn't even need an active or passive, just some moderate MR (maybe 30-40), 10% CDR, and some reasonable AP. This would add some more counter options to deal with the AP assassins like Leblanc and Katarina, or survive bursty opponenets like Lux.
> Since when has sieging been a toxic aspect to the game? When did mana regen become such an enormous problem? There have been several metagames where this aspect of the game has proven unmaintainble - it's gone through various incarnations (Ziggs, Anivia) to some more off-meta ones (Heimerdinger, Nidalee) - as well as the various incarnations of poke / heal or poke / kite compositions. MP/5 as the default expectation of how Mages 'solve' their mana issues hasn't really been incredibly synergistic with the rest of the systems. Mages that require a high amount of mana are ultimately devalued - mages that require no mana get power boosts from the fact that they can skip in this itemization entirely. It's de-valued other objectives, such as blue as well as constrains our ability to design high impact / cost spells without immediately pushing characters into the tank (RoA) or weak in lane (Tear) case. > just some moderate MR (maybe 30-40), 10% CDR, and some reasonable AP. I actually have this suspicion that pure stat-sticks and this focus on raw AP per gold is the actual reason why mages are falling off. Every major AP item - on completion - has a multiplicative effect on them of some type - CDR, AP Ratios, Pen, Pen %, some kind of team fight active, CC, etc. While the CDR here would help - simply creating an Abyssal scepter that has less of a multiplier effect on that means that, while you've bought an item that helps you survive - you've skipped a major multiplier. They'll win regardless of whether or not you've survived. Any delays on major multipliers murders the AP damage curve - as raw AP is mostly linear while almost every defensive option is at least dual scaling with health/resist. Therefore, any focus on delaying access to unique passives is going to further linearize the curve. It doesn't matter if the top-end end-game build has high AP or not - the multipliers are so delayed as to be moot by the time you get them.
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With the massive changes to adcs and their items why aren't mages being brought up to this state? Last whisper now gives 45% armor penetration. Void staff is not allowing mages to cut through the ridiculous tanks these days. So the solution is to nerf more ap items and buff the very items that ap needs to cut through. Why make mages unplayable by upping the costs of their items while making everything else cheaper? I really hope there is a better solution Riot.
> Last whisper now gives 45% armor penetration. Last Whisper gives 45% **bonus** armor penetration - making it far worse than before in terms of cutting through effective armor. A target generally has much more physical mitigation against carries than they did in pre-season - and most of the time, Last Whisper items don't even get purchased in 6-item ADC builds.
Hey Xypherous, I've read almost every comment you have made but not every post so forgive me if this has been asked already. I'd like to bring three things up and see hear what your thoughts are. 1. I think the items are pretty unique which is awesome but what I find concerning is that ap is being taken away from some core items that many mages use. The new items are geared towards mid range mages which I believe you stated. So as far as long range mages go they may opt not to buy these items and continue to go their normal item path. But with ap being taken away from zhonyas and abyssal their overall ap would be lower. Yes cdr is added to these items which is nice but frankly for many mages such as brand, syndra, xerath they are already getting 35-40% cdr without these changes put in place. So I don't see how adding cdr to these items really benefits them. To be up front I play most mages and have no problem getting 30-40% cdr with what items are already in place. So I feel like the 10% cdr on zhonyas and abyssal are a bit of a wasted stat. 2. Mages are already having a tough time dealing with tanks which in some sense they should because tanks build hp and that is troubling for a mage. However with ap being taken off these items they will likely struggle even more. Tanks already have very gold efficient items and are able to get tanky quicker in comparison to damage dealers being able to amass damage items. Why this is the case I'm not sure if you can shed some light i'd appreciate it. It just doesn't make sense to me to have one class able to buy more gold efficient items in comparison to another. Wouldn't you want tanks to get tanky at the same rate that damage dealers gain damage assuming everything is constant. Obviously in game it's different as there are many variables at play. So basically by lowering the overall ap certain mid laners can get it likely will hurt them when dealing with tanks. 3. It seems odd to me that there will be a mage update during the mid year but then this item focus is towards mid range mages and not mages as a whole. Aren't you basically going in knowing that long range mages will be weaker. Would it not make more sense to have something for long range mages that will ship the same time the mage update goes out so that all the mages can be equally as powerful. This would avoid a month or two of mid range mages being very dominant in the mid lane while long range mages sit in the shadows.
> as far as long range mages go they may opt not to buy these items and continue to go their normal item path. But with ap being taken away from zhonyas and abyssal their overall ap would be lower. Long Range Mages shouldn't buy Abyssal in the first place - and so likely the only hit will come from Zhonya's along this path. Tear is much stronger overall on these types of characters to begin with and if Tear is slightly more viable - their AP potential will shift as if Archangel's Staff is viable - then their net AP potential is much much higher. That said - a standard Morello route will be weaker and I'll be looking at what I can do along this line. > Mages are already having a tough time dealing with tanks which in some sense they should because tanks build hp and that is troubling for a mage. However with ap being taken off these items they will likely struggle even more. ... It just doesn't make sense to me to have one class able to buy more gold efficient items in comparison to another. Gold efficiency with slot efficiency aren't interchangeable terms. One of the things that have changed with Juggernaut / Preseason patch is that there has been a ton of high **slot** efficient early game items that are good at dealing with mages. Maw / Visage / Sterak's / etc. have all been incredibly powerful early game rushes to deal with mages. They aren't more gold efficient than the AP item counterparts (lowered gold cost and AP means gold efficiency remains roughly the same). I know that Maw / Merc is likely getting looked at - while the above change to visage deliberately tones down the anti-mage capacity. The nightmare case to avoid is to try arms racing with ever inflated MR and then AP values - everyone who isn't part of these two trends gets either blown up or deals zero damage to anyone not in this pairing. > It seems odd to me that there will be a mage update during the mid year but then this item focus is towards mid range mages and not mages as a whole. Aren't you basically going in knowing that long range mages will be weaker. Long Range mages are less supported by the item system than other mages - and I know that I need to add options so that they can spec more into their Artillery side. However, there's too much going on to state whether or not long range mages will be weaker or stronger. This assumes a couple of things - such as all mages being balanced right now (They aren't) - or that they currently have support in itemization that is strong (With RoA / Abyssal being so strong, I doubt it.) I know they don't have an MR option available to them but traditionally in the past, it's been really unclear whether they've needed it - or whether they needed the corresponding MR shredding options (Abyssal) to be weaker early.
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You missed an opportunity with Athene's. Because of the requirement that you shield or heal an ally, it's going to be limited to a very narrow group of champions, and it's probably going to get nerfed because of 1 or 2 of them that can abuse it like crazy. How about changing the item to have an active? Target an ally (not self) with it to heal them with the charges. Could be a way to give supports that have no sustain a way to heal their ADC if the situation demands it (i.e. Zyra support with ADC that loves eating Ezreal Q).
> How about changing the item to have an active? Target an ally (not self) with it to heal them with the charges. Could be a way to give supports that have no sustain a way to heal their ADC if the situation demands it (i.e. Zyra support with ADC that loves eating Ezreal Q). Interesting notion. What makes this from turning any kind of siege mage into a sustain mage (ala Xerath?) - rather than just the Support ones that we want to target (Zyra)?
As a completely new item the chalice and grail would be fine, BUT keeping the current chalice and grail, the items would be more balanced if you removed the magic resistance and lower grail's gold cost to compensate for no longer giving MR, chalice will be around the same price because you replace the MR with AP And the new item will be for Chalice Bell and the sustain healing item for shield/healing supports BAM more items to choose from and balance out a dedicated mana regen item simple as that
> And the new item will be for Chalice Bell and the sustain healing item for shield/healing supports BAM more items to choose from and balance out a dedicated mana regen item simple as that This is certainly more options - but it's not more choice. The Infinite mana + AP item would almost certainly become the new default mana item for most characters - unless you made it so tiny as to be incredibly slot inefficient - but then it wouldn't be worth having in an item build to begin with.
Hey Xypherous! If you're still here? Are these on the PBE yet? or will these changes be pushed onto saturday? also with athenes work with self heals? #sonamidreturn
> also with athenes work with self heals? Nope. Otherwise this is basically just a lifesteal item. :P
@Xypherous you mentioned that your intent for supports is to be able to have near 100% uptime when it comes to mana regen. I was just wondering if you took into account taric's new rework. I haven't been able to play the rework myself yet but from what i've seen his mana costs seem to be extremely high, I assume this is because his core item path already has a large amount of flat mana in it and because of all the aoe sustain he can deal. But It just looks like he is constantly running out of mana at all stages of the game, partially due to his passive giving him more uptime with his spells. I'm also really excited to see the new unholy grail on him I think it will work great. One more thing I was wondering about is why remove spell vamp? I understand that it has sort of always just sat there in the shop waiting for vlad and akali players. But I still feel like mages need more health sustain, specifically burst health sustain. I just feel like people weren't building it because it was a hard decision to make. Especially people who had the mindset that when they built spellvamp that they were losing damage because then it becomes I'm not doing much damage and my sustain relies on doing a lot of damage therefore I'm screwing myself over twice as much when I buy this item. I don't know, I was just hoping we would be seeing more spell vamp instead of less. and I'm disappointed :/
> I was just wondering if you took into account taric's new rework. I haven't been able to play the rework myself yet but from what i've seen his mana costs seem to be extremely high, They are - but from what I can tell he also doesn't tend to use spells on a high cadence. I suspect that he has high costs but fairly low opportunities to use most of his spells and is balanced that way. > One more thing I was wondering about is why remove spell vamp? I understand that it has sort of always just sat there in the shop waiting for vlad and akali players. But I still feel like mages need more health sustain, specifically burst health sustain. I've tried various incarnations of mages to give them more burst health sustain. The common point of feedback has been that it's not a stat they want to absorb only a fixed amount of damage. That is - the bar for burst defense seems to be somewhere along either Seraph's, old incarnations of Barrier or Zhonya's. This becomes tricky as any amount of % Spell Vamp that can hit those numbers tends to just either destroy sieges or the early lane, depending on how fast it can be rushed. You can try something like Satanic's active lifesteal for spells - but whenever we've actually tried this.. err.. it.. it's kind of ridiculous just due to the different spell profiles that mages have (Lux 'R' vs. Amumu 'R' or something). Lifesteal is a pattern that is a continuous drain pattern... spells are just too all over the place.
new
A big issue I am seeing is a huge hit to the amount of available AP. We just lost 80 AP from standard items to the nether. I think to compensate rabadons is going to need a buff to the passive's ratio as well as a price reduction so that mages can get the damage they need to function even so this is going to majorly shift the standard power curve to a much late point in the game where mages by nature are already falling off.
> A big issue I am seeing is a huge hit to the amount of available AP. Your AP per point of Gold curve should be relatively unchanged. The maximum AP potential of a build has gone down significantly and I'll be looking at what I can do to bring some of this back. The AP / Gold curve is something that I'm primarily more concerned about than raw AP potential - mostly because the more completed items - the more psuedo AP multipliers can kick in. For a silly example, imagine a world in which we doubled the AP of every item - and increased their cost proportionally. Running around with a 4800 G Zhonyas that gives 150 AP would be nice - until you realize that this means that you didn't pick up a Luden's Active - and that your Void Staff is 3900 G, grants 100 AP - and you're never going to finish it and get the 35% magic penetration multiplier. However, think about how this contributes to the feeling of falling off - and you'll discover it's not due to AP - it's that we're forcing you to pick up AP instead of AP multipliers like Luden's Ratio, or Magic Pen, or Deathcap's multiplier. > I think to compensate rabadons is going to need a buff to the passive's ratio as well as a price reduction I'm not going to get into an arms race with AP and MR. A large part of why mages feel fairly weak at the moment is that preseason and some Juggernaut support has pushed the needle into anti-MR in a big way - and controlling the net effect of that first is important to figure out exactly how much AP should be on each item. Otherwise, you just get this kind of weird world where you get people with enough base stats that can rush spirit visage, people who benefit from AP and people who are going to die due to ambient AoE magic damage.
I dont really know about the mages changes but the hextech rocket belt looks like something that assasins like fizz and Lb would abuse rather than giving mages a way to make plays.
> I dont really know about the mages changes but the hextech rocket belt looks like something that assasins like fizz and Lb would abuse rather than giving mages a way to make plays. I'll likely be shifting around the AP / Health ratio to make it less desirable for base AP purposes. Or at the very least, if they pick up the item - they should perhaps not have as much general burst damage - which means I just have to shift the focus of the item quite a bit from scaling stats to base stats.
I hate to give up my secret OP Tech, but have you considered Frostfang in this? Not Frost Queen, just the frost fang. When you do the math on the item it's an amazing early mana battery. You don't mention it at all. If you make these changes, picking up 100% mana regin + gold and AP for 850g on your first back, then into damage items will start to be even more powerful than it is now. I am using it on Karma, who uses it better than most, but almost any mage can use it just fine. The reason they don't use it right now is they have other ways to solve their mana problems, and people just have not considered it I expect. It does slow down your first item but when I commonly get 1000g+ from the item over the course of the game that's a small price to pay.
> I hate to give up my secret OP Tech, but have you considered Frostfang in this? Not Frost Queen, just the frost fang. We know that bottom lane sustain is a bit crazy at the moment - so we're actually doing a number of hits on this front in terms of both healing and sustain. I don't know if we're quite out of the woods on that one yet - it might still be nuts.
I don't know whether this is a mistake for not but on the thread it shows morello not offering any ap anymore. I am praying this is a mistake.
I updated the post to call this out specifically so that others don't get confused - thanks for the callout!
Dear Riot, while I understand that balancing a game is difficult, and that I am in no way a game designer nor very good at balancing things that I make in other games, something that I DO understand, is the actual builds that I see on a day to day basis. Those builds, funnily enough, DO ACTUALLY USE SPELLVAMP. Your decision to just say screw it, and remove spell vamp as a thing, rather than trying to make, oh I dont know, more interactive items that use the stat rather than just, "Here's a gun, it kinda heals you oh and it shoots things, and have a book that kinda makes you cast more often while also healing you." why not have some items that actually have interaction, perhaps have other actives that heal you based on damage done or targets in area, something like that. Instead of just removing a stat that was a mages ONLY refuge from an AD lane partner who almost instantly grabs a vamp scepter and then laughs when they can just force you out of lave after just 2 trades because now you have no way of restoring hp while they are full hp after just hitting a few minions, consider, actually doing something intelligent for a change. Removing spell vamp is your worst idea yet. All that will do is make the people who do build it to counter sustain lane partners loose out in the long run, and will harm the meta more than it will help it. Dont remove it, embrace it, make it more fun.
> Removing spell vamp is your worst idea yet. All that will do is make the people who do build it to counter sustain lane partners loose out in the long run, and will harm the meta more than it will help it. Dont remove it, embrace it, make it more fun. Because mages are so different - making it 'more fun' means that Vladimir, Akali, Kennen and Rumble - or insert some other mage with effectively free spells overpowered. So then the cycle becomes - well, all of these characters need to have their baseline effectiveness reduced in lane such that they're struggling to survive until they complete their Spell Vamp Item. If mages need lane sustain - then lane sustain needs to come in the form of something way more maintainable - because the discrepency between mage damage patterns - minions and others means that if this statistic is good across a wide variety of mages - the amount of mages whose early game we will absolutely have to **destroy** on a kit level is absurdly high and not worth that cost. At this point - I'd rather see those mages be fun in lane and the game rather than have a statistic that is a fantasy but comes at the significant expense of a lot of champion lane being interesting. The cost benefit in this case isn't terribly high.
If the problem with spell vamp is the earlygame, then why not have an item offer spell vamp that scales with level, similar to Abyssal, Shiv, or Sunfire? If you lock it away in an expensive item on top of that it means it won't be rushed, and even if it is, it won't be effective until later in the game. Like, a 3000k-ish item that gives 1% spell vamp per level would work fine. You'd expressly leave that effect out of the components, too. People get to keep their spell vamp builds, but it doesn't distort the laning phase. Everyone wins?
I've tried that incarnation out as well. The main issue with that is that mage patterns aren't typically sustained enough such that spell vamp can actually kick in. So typically the only people that benefit from that are tanky AP characters - but at that point they typically prefer just building more AP/Tank items (Rylai's) and the like - rather than Spell Vamp. So the item typically just has to swing towards an extreme level of Spell Vamp - and you get this weird kind of 'When Swain works, just surrender, because you literally can't kill him' - and most other sustain casters going 'Well.. I still kind of would prefer Deathcap since if they die, I don't take that much damage.'
If Rocket belt's active turns out to be problematic would you consider changing its active to focus more on the flaming inferno. The item provides some great stats that manaless AP champions like Vlad, Rumble and Mordekaiser would love to build (CDR, AP and HP). Not to mention it being somewhat saddening if the hex tech line would lose their fire themed item.
It's definitely one of the possibilities we've talked about - we can tune the range on the item down and the flaming burst part of it more if it comes down to it - making an effective themed shotgun style blast.
Glad to hear that, I personally think the shotgun feel of this item would be really cool on those balls to the walls kind of champions that want to unleash AoE hell on their enemies :D
Frost Cannon actually does this pretty well - if you're just looking for indiscriminate AoE as it pierces rather than explodes on the first target hit.
Alright, my third post.. Many mages take CDR/level blues atm, You're taking away our mana regen and giving us a lot more CDR.. I know the Mana regen runes are kinda lame.. but do you see them becoming more popular? I mean I've used them as support... but I feel they might work in this new era...
Apologies. There's 400 posts and I must've missed it in the huge pile of posts. I am, charitably speaking, way more outnumbered here in terms of response effectiveness than I have been in the past. I definitely see them picking up in popularity if people feel like they need more Mana. In lane, I hope that Lost Chapter and the various Mana items will be sufficient for a lot of lane issues - as, even though they aren't infinite mana, 25% refund and restoring max Mana on level up are both pretty powerful. One of the reasons why I've decided to push for Max Mana is that all the surrounding systems (Pregame, objectives and other map buffs) interact much better with it. Blue Buff becomes more important. Certain things we're trying with objectives become more important - and the keystone mastery and rune system becomes a bit more flexible. With CDR - being kind of a threshold stat that is relatively hard to key off of (due to having a max) - this has been more confining. We've been doing our best to deprioritize CDR from the pre-game system unless it has relatively little effects on the item system.
I could totally see top lane tanks picking up an early catalyst to make laning super safe and to build into Righteous Glory or even Frost Cannon for the initiation potential. Especially considering the synergy with Frozen Heart/IBG. Have you guys had this concern and do you plan to do anything about it? Also, will you be addressing Doran's Ring? I'm worried about "Lord of the Rings" builds becoming a common way to circumvent mana pool woes.
> I could totally see top lane tanks picking up an early catalyst to make laning super safe and to build into Righteous Glory or even Frost Cannon for the initiation potential. Especially considering the synergy with Frozen Heart/IBG. Have you guys had this concern and do you plan to do anything about it? I'm planning some adjustments to Righteous Glory in order to prevent some of the game health concerns the last time Righteous Glory was strong cropping up. We haven't been able to allow Righteous Glory be strong for a while due to it depriving initiation tanks from feeling like their contributions are valuable - so it's highly likely that active will shift around. Still iterating on exact functionality however. > Also, will you be addressing Doran's Ring? I'm worried about "Lord of the Rings" builds becoming a common way to circumvent mana pool woes. This trade-off is **enormous** if you go triple rings. In lane, the component items actually do a good bit to solve your mana woes. Later on in the game, rings are fairly slot inefficient - so if you do go this route, I think it'll balance itself out.
i kinda wish that the icons for the new hextech items where different. it's kinda weird that a hextech item is a pumpkin
Those are temp icons - we'll get the new icons and more final names as we get closer to release.
Hello, reply rates seem to be very high here, so why not give it a try? I'm a Diamond 5 Veigar main on NA (Church of Arceus), and there's one thing I want to ask. Will there be 0 Mana Regen options for mages? What I do on Veigar to help with his excruciating weaknesses (terrible laning, never safe in lane), is rush Forbidden Idol + Chalice. Combined with his passive, this gives enough Mana Regen for Veigar to permafarm his Q at max range. This is great for helping with his largest (and frankly, the reason he's considered terrible) weakness, and it's what I've been doing to climb. The strategy isn't without its trade offs: delayed powerspike, lower AP amounts early game, early game weakness is still very prevalent. Anyways, here's the question. With all the Mana Regen options practically gone, is there going to be **0** ways for mages to acquire a steady amount? I've been theory crafting and maybe Tear + Meditation will help, but idk.
> Anyways, here's the question. With all the Mana Regen options practically gone, is there going to be 0 ways for mages to acquire a steady amount? I've been theory crafting and maybe Tear + Meditation will help, but idk. If you want to spam an endless amount of spells - it's likely going to either come from Tear - or sitting on Chapter and using the bonus mana from levelling up.
Will you be keeping spell vamp quints in the game? If so, might I suggest combining lifesteal and spell vamp quints as a single quint similar to the Vampirism mastery, because neither the spell vamp nor lifesteal quints are being used.
Changing runes is always bit of a nightmare. I'm not going to touch them at the moment (and making more mandatory runes is something we tend to try to avoid just due to the massive player pain it usually causes).
So, I take it that means that the spell vamp quints will live on till another day if you won't be touching the runes at all as you say (no rhyme intended)? Though, I still hope that my idea will be of service to you if you ever do decide to touch the runes in the future. Also, there won't be any reworking for the spell vamp part of the physical damage heal from items like Elixir of Wrath or Death's Dance (not trying to give you any ideas tho XD ), right? I mean they are just physical damage, so they shouldn't run into the same Vladimir problem. I think I already know the answer to that one. If you guys originally made it physical damage, then you've probably already thought about this. I feel like I am talking to myself, lol.
> Also, there won't be any reworking for the spell vamp part of the physical damage heal from items like Elixir of Wrath or Death's Dance (not trying to give you any ideas tho XD ), right? Nope. The reason for this is that Physical Damage Vamp is **also** lifesteal. Because lifesteal is so well controlled and effectively free - this allows Physical Damage Vamp to be much much easier to balance. Basically the power of physical spell vamp looks like this: Lifesteal - 50 - 75% Spell Vamp - 25 - 50% The fact that LIfesteal is easy to control 'curbs' the variance that the Spell Vamp has by quite a bit and makes it a much easier statistic to work with.
Could you please clarify a couple of things? * Do tear upgrades (Archangel, Manamune) keep mana regen or do they have it removed as well? * Does Morello keep the regen passive from Lost Chapter? 400 flat mana alone actually looks worse than 250 mana + regen on levelling up. * Do Righteous Glory and ROA keep the passive from the new Catalyst? Or do we just lose it as the cost for upgrading it?
None of the tear upgrade items have mana regeneration on them. They only have the refund passive. Morello does not keep the Lost Chapter's level up passive. I'll be tuning this item as it's been mentioned several times that Morello looks a bit weak at the moment. Righteous Glory and RoA both keep the passive from the new Catalyst.
What if new morellos proced on kill/assist also? It wouldn't be infinite attrition like the old athenes but it would be pretty rewarding and a good substitute for the complete lack of offensive regen items. I find that on most champions i run out of mana after killing tons of people, being rewarded for that and not for throwing 30 spears into the air seems good. That said this athenes needs a lot of tweaking to become good, kinda sucks because new chalice is interesting but athenes will probably not be viable for the mid lane. Roa mana nerf seems kinda heavy, it'll synergyze with seraphs about as much as the new morellos which is iffy, but it gets that cool new sustain passive.
Yeah - I've been spinning through this a bit. I'll probably move some version of the old mana on kill onto Morello's. I still need to adjust its statline as it looks pretty unfavorable compared to Tear / Roa at this point.
In regards to the Hextech Rocket Belt... as a Ahri main I can confirm, would buy that item no matter what due to the amount of mobility it would give with it + flash + my three ult dashes... Making a item for low mobility mages can't be good at all IMO opinion since most of the mages in questions are really bursty and have good CC. So letting them have a 30 second CD flash ~~which throws out fireballs because that makes sense~~. To be used in combination with flash as a offensive and defensive movement ability, instead of leaving them a more suited play style of bait into range and melt them when their in range is going to open up a avenue of "We made low mobility people faster yaye" and then also the avenue of "Oh good lord that zed just moved halfway across the map, killed our ADC and now we cant catch him."
> instead of leaving them a more suited play style of bait into range and melt them when their in range is going to open up a avenue of "We made low mobility people faster yaye" What I've noticed is that this isn't a playstyle: It's become more and more of a stat-check as the game has gone on. Almost every immobile mage doesn't make plays - per se. They hit a certain burst threshold where they can kill you - or hit a certain tankiness threshold where they can't be killed - and either walk at you or flash at you and the fight is over in a barrage of numbers. Because these champions are more or less inflexible - as opposing characters get more and more tools - these characters have to stat-check ever harder to stay relevant unless something about the baseline flexibility of the game goes up.
"Almost every immobile mage doesn't make plays - per se" This argument feels like spin to me. You could make the stat check argument any engagement in this game. In my mind. Making plays in this game is often a game of calling "bull*&^%" on your opponents positioning. Which entails mental gymnastics involves positioning and stat checking. People make more mistakes around champions with more mobility, because mobile champions project their power over a larger area. Immobile champions can't surprise their opponents by rapidly changing their positioning. So they rely on positioning strategically so that their opponents half to fight them up close (stand next to the adc) or capitalize on opponents being grossly out of position (walk at you or flash at you). They can also bait their opponents into a fight they will lose. I would consider the later making a play. Increased consistency seems like a relevant reward for playing with less area of influence.
> Increased consistency seems like a relevant reward for playing with less area of influence. It's not actually increased consistency **net** compared to their counterparts though. Mobile champions guarantee consistency because it limits your opponent's effective range of actions. When channeled through player skill, mobility provides incredible consistency. Immobile mages have had to fight back with their own form of consistency - effectively higher health or damage totals - in short becoming more about stat-checks. However, this type of consistency doesn't particularly convert player skill or agency well - outside of their ability to farm. Unfortunately because our game is also heavily gold driven - this type of consistency loops back onto itself - if Annie is strong - she'll gain enough power to itemize into being strong. The player itself has less to do with this type of strength than someone using skills that have a greater variance of success and failure ratios. AKA - Swain wins or not based on whether or not he got enough gold in lane - not necessarily whether he made a particularly skillful play at any time in the game. The hextech item line is designed to be better channels of player skill than raw statistical power usually does on these types of mages. Ultimately, I want players of these champions to be able to have access to things that can be greatly variant depending on how good they are as a player - whether or not Rocket Belt fits this niche or not - time will tell - but these types of immobile mages typically don't tend to have much skill expression and this limits their scaling with regards to player skill.
Your points are absolutely valid, but wouldn't adding mobility to already mobile champions further increase their consistency? With this item, mobile champions in the hands of skilled players will be more rewarded than non-mobile champions, and the problem isn't entirely solved anyway Immobile champions are picked with the realization that they are sacrificing mobility for other strengths (Annie with stuns, Swain with roots and sustain, Cho with CC and silence). Its part of their identity as a champion. You really can't picture an immobolie cho dashing around to engage/disengange the enemy. Adding this mobility tool takes away from their identity while giving more power to mobile champions. I feel from your argument that what you are trying to solve is how to increase skill-based plays on nonmobile champions. If true, that's a great pursuit, but this item may not be going in the right direction. This item should REWARD immobile champions for being immobile. Flash already exists for re-positioning, and its far more effective (longer range and can go over walls). There might be a way to do this: Have the active be a medium-to-long range skillshot with an added effect (stun, root, w/e) that can only be fired after an uninteruptable channel. - Though not as flashy as mobility spells, skill shots also require, well, skill. The ability to land things like thresh hooks and ahri charms separate good players from bad, even if they have the same items/gold. - Added effect is up to you. It can be any form of CC that feels healthy to the game. It's essentially to allow a nonmobile champion to reposition (either to engage or disengage) without allowing the enemy to immediately counter with a mobility spell. (even something like that new MYMU Cassopiea effect where enemies cant use mobility spells could be good) - The channel is what helps solidify this item for nonmobile champions. Decreasing the mobility of non-mobile champion is not nearly as painful as decreasing the mobility of a mobile champion. Though not a perfect solution, imagine if {{champion:103}} ,{{champion:105}}, or {{champion:7}} had to slow down for a channeled ability, it would throw off their pace and leave them susceptible counters (which they would usually take care of with a mobility spell). This doesnt have to be a completely immobile channel either (it could something like the first cast of a Xerath Q). It would depend on game health There are already high-skilled champions that are immobile used in high elo: {{champion:101}} {{champion:99}} {{champion:61}} . Part of the reason for their high mastery is because of the effects of their skillshots. Maybe this is the direction you could look into. **Reward immobile champions for being immobile**, don't make it feel like they are missing something. Everyone's perfect in their own ways:)
> Your points are absolutely valid, but wouldn't adding mobility to already mobile champions further increase their consistency? Adding anything to mobile champions increases their consistency. Mobility is a multiplier, after all. However, mobility itself requires players to use it well in order to be consistent. Lee Sin is, after all, a very consistent champion - after significant mastery. Most of our high mobility champions become highly consistent when mastered but the important part to focus on is the Mastery bit - not the consistent bit here. > Its part of their identity as a champion. You really can't picture an immobolie cho dashing around to engage/disengange the enemy. Adding this mobility tool takes away from their identity while giving more power to mobile champions. This is an argument to not have itemization in the game do anything but increase statistical power. This is a definitely a valid argument to a certain extent if you think that champions should be themselves and player choices shouldn't necessarily matter in terms of champion function or identity. Personally, I don't find this path particularly compelling because it seems to state that players themselves should not be able to alter patterns of champions to fit their own skill level or how they want to play. > Have the active be a medium-to-long range skillshot with an added effect (stun, root, w/e) that can only be fired after an uninteruptable channel. This item is *significantly* more powerful for a mobile champion than an immobile one. Consider - this is basically Fizz's shark. A long range capture spell favors high mobility champions considerably - most mobility champions have one of these spells on their kits because it synergizes with mobility **so well**. The reason why long range channeled effects are powerful on mobile champions is that they are the only ones that can pay the distance cost for free - and thus they don't particularly care about the time cost. Consider, if Fizz lands his shark - then he can choose whether to use his mobility to go in or not. Annie does not have this option. Annie must go in at all the time. Alternatively, this item is significantly more powerful on artillery champions who don't want mobility in the first place as this simply adds one more artillery spell. Neither of these actually helps any mid-range immobile mage because they have to play the positioning game and they have to play it to the edge. Put it another way - who can actually afford to stand and channel for 0.5 to 1 seconds? The guy with no escapes and has to walk - or the guy with a moveblock that can get out after the channel? Conversely - who can catch up to you after you stand and channel for 0.5 to 1 seconds? The guy with no closer and has to walk? Or Fizz? > Reward immobile champions for being immobile, don't make it feel like they are missing something. Everyone's perfect in their own ways:) Artillery type champions are not the actual champions this set of items is trying to solve for. Primarily, the hextech item is designed for mid-range champions who cannot rely on extreme positioning to succeed. Ryze, Annie, Swain, Rumble and the like must be either tankier, durable or simply prevent you from doing anything in order to succeed. Furthermore, Orianna is one of the fastest characters in the game. Calling her immobile is a bit of a stretch here.
> [{quoted}](name=Xypherous,realm=PBE,application-id=2EAF660193FA3B668D7234B3AEBB530C5AB7F651,discussion-id=79cto3EB,comment-id=00de000100000000,timestamp=2016-04-11T21:20:17.311+0000) > Immobile mages have had to fight back with their own form of consistency - effectively higher health or damage totals - in short becoming more about stat-checks. However, this type of consistency doesn't particularly convert player skill or agency well - outside of their ability to farm. > That's the consistency I was talking about, but I don't think of "stat-checking" as a dirty word. > Unfortunately because our game is also heavily gold driven - this type of consistency loops back onto itself - if Annie is strong - she'll gain enough power to itemize into being strong. The player itself has less to do with this type of strength than someone using skills that have a greater variance of success and failure ratios. AKA - Swain wins or not based on whether or not he got enough gold in lane - not necessarily whether he made a particularly skillful play at any time in the game. > If stat checking isn't a dirty word then there isn't a problem. All successes in this game loops back onto it self. Thats what makes the whole game interesting. Maybe I'm not following you. >The hextech item line is designed to be better channels of player skill than raw statistical power usually does on these types of mages. > Without statistical power player skill doesn't really matter. Maybe I just can't see what you're envisioning. > Ultimately, I want players of these champions to be able to have access to things that can be greatly variant depending on how good they are as a player - whether or not Rocket Belt fits this niche or not - time will tell - but these types of immobile mages typically don't tend to have much skill expression and this limits their scaling with regards to player skill. > Good luck with that. It seems like reducing early/mid game mana avalablity will further reduce immobile mages agency, thus requiring even more statistical power to be viable.
> If stat checking isn't a dirty word then there isn't a problem. All successes in this game loops back onto it self. Thats what makes the whole game interesting. Specifically here - the problem is what causes the start of this loop and what can fuel it. Was it the skill of the player piloting the champion - or was the champion just innately strong to begin with? That is, currently, mid-range mages of this type succeed or fail mostly due to whether or not the particular mage in question is overtuned or undertuned. There are certain exceptions (Ryze, for instance - and his complex CD rotations). That is, I could make a mage in which the player could express skill - skillshots, ways to make plays - things that enable the player to show mastery of the game. -Or- I could give that mage 500 more starting health in lane and only targetted spells. While it's true that in both cases - if the mage was successful, that success loops back on itself - in one of these cases - the players individual impact is what caused that loop to begin - while in the other case, it was just a simple measure of having more stats than the opponent and being particularly difficult to lose with. > Without statistical power player skill doesn't really matter. Maybe I just can't see what your envisioning. I'm making the converse of this statement actually. For Annie and a lot of these champions, player skill doesn't matter - only how much statistical power they have. While there is a certain amount of minimum statistical strength that is required to do anything - the major factor is how much does your individual player skill multiply this effect. For Annie and other mid-range mages - this factor is *far* lower than for other champions.
So...is this you admitting that you like the 'playmaker' champions over any other kind of champions? I realize that's a loaded term, but seriously, I've spent quite a while defending Riot's supposed 'bias' towards 'LC$BIGPLAYZ' champs, but if that's actually true than I'm honestly kinda pissed. Like, I understand that skill expression is great, but there's ways to have skill expression other than 'every single champion is entirely skillshots and everyone has dashes.'
> So...is this you admitting that you like the 'playmaker' champions over any other kind of champions? How does the statement go? 'Democracy is the worst of all possible governments, except for all the other ones.' I try not to like anything in particular. I'm mostly driven out of a desire to see what kind of things can exist without creating more problems. > Like, I understand that skill expression is great, but there's ways to have skill expression other than 'every single champion is entirely skillshots and everyone has dashes.' I'm not particularly picky how we get skill expression into the game - so long as it's available as a growth pattern that players can opt into. The goal of the hextech items is to introduce items that allow you to express your skill. If the Rocket Belt works - great. If not, we'll try something else - but ultimately at the end of the day - the goal of the Hextech line is to allow for that type of expression to exist. I'm not super attached to any particular form of it - so long as the skill expression isn't something like 'I know X character just kind of wins by default so the skill is just picking it when it's OP.'
How do any of the items help express your skill besides adding in extra buttons in your combo and giving initiators an extra 300 range to work with? Yes, skill expression is great, but again, there's ways to do it that don't involve adding in dashes. And I don't see why we need a bunch of mage items to express skill when there's lots of other classes out there that get by just fine on their base champions abilities. Are you thinking that everyone should have as many active items as your average support?
> And I don't see why we need a bunch of mage items to express skill when there's lots of other classes out there that get by just fine on their base champions abilities. Other classes don't get by on their solely base champion abilities typically. They typically have some deep interaction with the game rules that a lot of spell-centric or burst centric characters don't have. The ranged basic attack and all it's associated skill sets aren't part of the base champion ability - but they nonetheless are what allows deep skill expression on any particular champion who is reliant on it to function. We've built an entire mini-game out of managing the Jungle and its associated map positioning strategy - which gives even simple characters the ability to express skill via positioning and timing. Movement skills typically have this just due to the range of potential options available. > Are you thinking that everyone should have as many active items as your average support? Active creep is a fairly real concern but you're right - this is an absurd expectation to have. But I don't expect that these items are giving everyone a dash - mostly trying to align the statistics to be more effective on a specific range of mages. > Yes, skill expression is great, but again, there's ways to do it that don't involve adding in dashes. To repeat myself: If the Rocket Belt works - great. If not, we'll try something else - but ultimately at the end of the day - the goal of the Hextech line is to allow for that type of expression to exist.
I think I'm overestimating the amount of skill you're trying to add here. Because if using 'ranged champions have to figure out how to position correctly' as 'deep skill expression' than I think I'm going overboard. I think I mostly got offended by the whole 'immobile mages don't take skill, you just out stat check enemies.' I probably read that wrong, anyway. My bad.
> I think I mostly got offended by the whole 'immobile mages don't take skill, you just out stat check enemies.' I probably read that wrong, anyway. My bad. From what I've seen of your posts - You're actually very reasonable and think through things quite deeply. I'm probably more at fault here in terms of word choice and setting you off. I'm a bit overwhelmed responding to this level of posts - and so the usual care I have in crafting my posts is probably lost as well. I don't have the same amount of time to edit and choose my words more carefully. (I'm actually **very** acerbic in real life.) My apologies for offending you but I will say - I love the discussions nonetheless - it's always incredibly helpful to have my assumptions challenged directly as that's what gets me out of my Ivory Tower more often or not. > 'ranged champions have to figure out how to position correctly' I'm just going by how many people can orb-walk well, to be honest. Which is.. well.. kind of limited.
>The goal of the hextech items is to introduce items that allow you to express your skill. Rocket Belt isn't adding skill expression to mages, it's removing it. A lot of the skill inherent to playing mages is positioning correctly. You're removing actual skill from their kits in favour of flashiness. I think a good analogy to this is Ashe and Ez. As champions they're somewhat similar, they're both ADCs who rely on slows to control fights, but Ashe is far more difficult to play correctly because she doesn't have a blink. It's the lack of saftey that make Ashe far harder to play, while in spite of his "skill expression" through mobility Ez is actually an incredibly easy champ to play.
Difficulty and Skill expression, while having a strong correlation - are not as directly linked as this. We could make a champion that says 'Whenever you cast a spell, you need to solve this calculus expression.' Or we could make a champion that has 50% of the base stats of everyone else and it would be intensely difficult to play. What difficulty does is stress the importance of **other** mechanics in the game and your ability to master those. Ashe - for example - needs a much **much** better sense of positioning than Ezreal in order to be successful. She tests that positioning far more than Ez. This method only works **if** the base mechanics themselves are sufficient to carry this weight. For a sustained range attack - there is a fair amount of depth given how often you need to repeat this pattern and the flexibility of the ranged basic attack means there's a pretty solid base here. This presumes that the basic mechanics are deep enough to be "enough" essentially - and if this was the case then we wouldn't necessarily even have to make Annie all that strong - just a character with good positioning and a character that is strong mechanically could still face off and come out even (as they have competing skill checks that are outputting the same level of effectiveness.) Over the years - we've found no amount of the basic mechanics inherent to playing a mid-range mage of this type has matched up to the depth of just the ranged basic attack and the sustained pattern within it. This is a similar problem for melee - which we don't actually have a ton of basic mechanics that convert skill expression to effectiveness. TL;DR - Harder isn't more skill expression necessarily. Harder stresses the skill checks already present. However, those skill checks need to be **sufficient** to carry them to a high degree of success without other compensating factors.
What you described seems more like a problem of mobile champions having too many tools, than immobile champions not having enough tools. If you keep adding items for champs to reliably overcome their weaknesses, it's going to lead to a very bland game after a certain point. "Do I choose the new mage with mobility and CC who has to rush a damage item, or the old mage with CC and damage who has to rush a mobility item?"
> What you described seems more like a problem of mobile champions having too many tools, than immobile champions not having enough tools. The problem is one of skill expression and the ability for player skill to influence the game. If you simply removed tools from both sides - both sides have less skill expression and the ability for their skill to influence the game. Adding items for champions to reliably overcome their weaknesses assumes that these items don't depend on player skill to accomplish that feature. Certainly adding something 20% movement speed and 35% Tenacity onto Annie would lead to a bland game but depending on how you accomplish your goals - the method for solving your weakness could take significant mastery (Consider Flash or Zhonya's Hourglass.)
> [{quoted}](name=Xypherous,realm=PBE,application-id=2EAF660193FA3B668D7234B3AEBB530C5AB7F651,discussion-id=79cto3EB,comment-id=00de000100010000,timestamp=2016-04-12T01:03:18.244+0000) > > The problem is one of skill expression and the ability for player skill to influence the game. If you simply removed tools from both sides - both sides have less skill expression and the ability their skill to influence the game. You are implying that more tools = more opportunity for skill expression. If this were a purely PvE game, I might agree. However, in League, a huge amount of abilities inhibit your opponent's ability to interact with you. In fact, this is the entire point of crowd control. We even have terms for champion matchups where your skill matters very little - hard counters. If a champion is truly lacking in depth and "skill expression," their kit needs a rework, full stop. They should not be bending items, masteries and other systems around them to compensate for their lack of "playmaking ability."
> If a champion is truly lacking in depth and "skill expression," their kit needs a rework, full stop. They should not be bending items, masteries and other systems around them to compensate for their lack of "playmaking ability." While I can sympathize with this statement - I'm actually more prone to challenge this rather than support it. This viewpoint is far too champion-centric to me. When there's a ton of skill expression simply mastering the various components of the game - there can be champions who are more straight-forward and brick like - because there will be further skill expression in the **emergent** cross between them and the rest of the surrounding systems. If champions are too skill-intensive - and that skill is mostly focused on the champion itself - then the **game** becomes really stale and boring. Imagine if we took away minions and towers and the associated skills and pumped even more of that into champion skills. This would also be an argument for removing Flash - and moving that level of mastery into champions. Ultimately, what you have is a bunch of individual little flowers that don't interact well - because there's nothing to interact *with* other than other champions. There is a certain baseline level of skill expression that needs to be in the underlying system - and there needs to be a baseline level of skill expression in each unique champion - then the multiplicative result and the interactions between those actually form a stronger game - rather than tilting entirely one way or the other.
So...you claim that immobile mages having better stats than mobile mages is just 'outstating someone', and bad. What happened to making people pay for their mobility? Do you think that more mobile champs are healthier?
> So...you claim that immobile mages having better stats than mobile mages is just 'outstating someone', and bad. > What happened to making people pay for their mobility? Do you think that more mobile champs are healthier? It's less so the principle of just having better stats - so much as **winning** off the back of just having a stat advantage that is hard to maintain. Mostly because - for a lot of these characters, that stat advantage doesn't scale well with player skill - and so you get this oddity of - well, if their opponent gets better... you just kind of have to add more base damage - because that's how they won in the first place. Mobile champions aren't necessarily healthier for the game overall but they do scale well in terms of player skill. Many of the problems of mobile champions is that they scale **too well** with player skill - such that mastery over the champion results in the opponent's being unable to interact with them. Hence why I'm exploring item based solutions here - I think there's something interesting about using the gold system for this kind of trade-off and it introduces a couple points of mastery along the way. As to which specific item pattern works out - I'm not particularly concerned about whether its more items with cast times or more eclectic items.
So, what, do you think everyone can just pick up Annie for the first time and be the next Annie Bot? I don't see how adding in extra active items makes champions more skillful to play. It's just an extra button to press in a combo. I mean, sure, there's skill in 'did you hit the ice bolts?' or not, but is that worth all of the other changes getting made to mage itemization? Here's the thing, I'm fairly certain that this isn't really a trade off. Either the hextech items are good, in which case you buy them, or they're bad, in which case you don't. This is basically the same thing as the 'some champs lack skill expression' you were complaining about. No one's gonna buy a potentially useless item active unless the success case is REALLY strong.
> I don't see how adding in extra active items makes champions more skillful to play. It's just an extra button to press in a combo. I mean, sure, there's skill in 'did you hit the ice bolts?' or not, but is that worth all of the other changes getting made to mage itemization? These changes aren't linked - so this is a bit of a red herring. Regardless of whether the Hextech items actually work or not - the changes aren't connected. > So, what, do you think everyone can just pick up Annie for the first time and be the next Annie Bot? Of course not - that's hyperbole. Merely stating that the coefficient of player input to champion effectiveness is lower for these characters than others which brings about a maintenance problem ultimately in the long run if you want to see a larger pool of total champions. Either something about the base game needs to bring up the general coefficient of skill such that champion skill factor is less an overall contributor to your mastery of the game - or we need to adjust champions one by one to have more similar curves. > Either the hextech items are good, in which case you buy them, or they're bad, in which case you don't. This is a fair critique of items in general - that the only skill test in items is whether to buy them or not. However, this assumes that the actives don't get better with player skill. And it may definitely be true that these actives don't have a high player skill to effectiveness co-efficient either - if that's the case - they'll likely fail their initial goal and may have to settle for either being axed or just being a choice in the item system rather than any higher goals.
> [{quoted}](name=Xypherous,realm=PBE,application-id=2EAF660193FA3B668D7234B3AEBB530C5AB7F651,discussion-id=79cto3EB,comment-id=00de000100020000,timestamp=2016-04-12T03:38:50.977+0000) > > Many of the problems of mobile champions is that they scale **too well** with player skill - such that mastery over the champion results in the opponent's being unable to interact with them. > I think this can be applied to pretty much **any** champion, if you have fully mastered a champion, one you have dedicated hours to playing, getting better at, learning their kit, best ways to play against others. You will usually, in the end be better than your lane opponent who may not have as much experience as you with their adc mid lane Lulu, or 5th time player Annie. If the problem lies that a champion gets too good the better you are at the champion then you need to look at the learning curve of the other champions in question. The correlation between a players **skill** and their ability to over come a lane opponent shouldn't be fixed with items, but more with the learning curve of said immobile and mobile champions.
> The correlation between a players skill and their ability to over come a lane opponent shouldn't be fixed with items, but more with the learning curve of said immobile and mobile champions. The problem I find with this view generally is that it's entirely too champion centric. It's definitely a valid stance to take but it depends on the type of game you want to design. The base game system needs a certain degree of support for skill expression - otherwise the game becomes mostly flat because there's only one axis of skill to master. For example, we could remove items entirely - because the learning curve for the game should be about mastering how you use your champion skills. We could also remove last hitting - because again, the learning curve of the game should be about mastering how you fight opponents. You can make similar arguments for Summoner Spells or anything that's not in a champion. We could take all these skill checks and put it in the individual champion kits and what you end up with is ultimately an arena style game. The amount of **base** skill expression in the game that is independent on champion skill is fairly important to ensuring that we have a large variety of skill tests to the game - and the more numerous the number of synergistic but independent skill checks there are - the more different types of players can express their mastery.
This is just bad. Mobility = safety. Just look at {{champion:103}} {{champion:105}} {{champion:24}} {{champion:38}} {{champion:429}} {{champion:55}} {{champion:121}} {{champion:203}} {{champion:7}} {{champion:64}} {{champion:127}} {{champion:54}} {{champion:11}} {{champion:76}} {{champion:2}} {{champion:421}} {{champion:92}} {{champion:107}} {{champion:35}} {{champion:102}} {{champion:27}} {{champion:91}} {{champion:23}} {{champion:77}} {{champion:254}} {{champion:106}} {{champion:62}} {{champion:238}} All of them can engage and disengage on short CDs use to get kills and to escape getting killed. Immobile mages have two things to escape getting killed. DEF stats, Hard CC. Problem is riot does not give that to all of them and most of them do not have enough to counter (by player skill) Mobility. Riot has even given some neither of them. Look at {{champion:143}} . She is squishing and has a soft (stupidly short and easy to dodge by mobility) CC. The ONLY way she wins a lane is by stacking damage stats and using plats to make a danger zone. But if a mobile champ can get in and out of the damage zone with ease (*cough Zed* *cough Fizz*) then she has nothing to combat them. Riot has painted themselves in a corner with the mobility creep without giving it to all champs. And giving a mobility Item does nothing because the mobile champs will just take it too and the item is a wash. What Immobile champs need is items like Zhonys but on shorter CD with stats the help them and not Mobile champs or items that help with making a safe zone or danger zone that again mobile champs will not be interested in. I would live to see an AP item that creates a zone that gives a shield as long as you stay in it or it is depleted and have it scale off Mana. This way when they are attacked they can defend themselves or when they go to attack they make the enemy want to run or face a tougher fight. You say Riot likes play "Makers" but the flip side to that is those that the play is being made on and they need ways to at that point make their own "plays" I see Mobility champs as Aggressive play makers. And Immobile champs as Defensive play makers. There is nothing wrong with ether as long as you give each tools to make their plays. Currently only Mobile champs have tools.
> I would live to see an AP item that creates a zone that gives a shield as long as you stay in it or it is depleted and have it scale off Mana. This way when they are attacked they can defend themselves or when they go to attack they make the enemy want to run or face a tougher fight. Sure, there's a variant of that that could be interesting. I'm not particularly interested in **how** we inject skill expression - so long as there's a certain level of mastery that players can opt into in the game itself. As far as specifics go - we haven't found shield effects to be particularly compelling (given that we have 3 or 4 shield skills in the game) - there's probably some type of trick to making a defensive skill have a level of depth here that isn't 'time this to block damage' - or, potentially worse - 'I am super tanky in this zone.'
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So, here's what scares me. You lowered AP on Zhonyas, Athenes, Rod of Ages, while also weakening Spirit Visage for a lower cost. My concern is that mages won't quite hit the same power they used to late game now that a lot of items are weaker for less gold. my fear is that their full build strength will be weaker than before, although I've yet to see these Hextech items used. My question is, will you guys be changing anything to adjust for this lack of power? Or is that what the Hextech items are for? I see a lot of damage dealing passives and not enough look-at-my-veigar-ult *splat*
> while also weakening Spirit Visage for a lower cost. Actually, Spirit Visage has the same cost. > You lowered AP on Zhonyas, Athenes, Rod of Ages Rod of Ages is a relatively recent addition to the series of Mage items - I'm not going to get into an arms race by trying to keep up with the highest AP build that's been possible - rather I'd want to shoot for looking at what AP has been for a while with standard build (Morello, Deathcap, Luden's) that kind of deal - rather than highest possible AP build currently - as that'll just lead to raw numbers creep. Athene's hasn't been a part of a lot of standard cores for a couple of months - so the reduction of AP on it, while noticeable - is going to be a red herring. The real hit here is the drop in AP from Zhonyas. I'll be looking at a couple things to try to inflate the various items back to make up for the hit here - at least on a standard profile build. Tear builds will have higher AP than some of the previous builds - but they'll also likely be the squishiest.
I just had a thought that I mentioned in a non red post on the normal boards, but I'd like to share it here to see what you'd think. Maybe spell vamp per se isn't what people want, but rather SOME form of sustain people can opt into by casting spells. It may sound the same, but I don't think it is. How about an item that doesn't add "spellvamp" as a stat, but rather... Heals 10-20 health every time you cast a damaging spell and hit someone (only activates once per spellcast, and only procs off of hitting one champ). This way, no DoT and AoE can abuse it, and you can't just spam spells into the nether - you have to hit someone. (Numbers would be subject to change). Is this an idea you had considered? Edit: Also would not work on minions. So this would be sustain in team fights or skirmishes, or in laning phase essentially.
> Is this an idea you had considered? I don't actually think that hitting someone is actually a necessary requirement here. It's the basic thought around Catalyst - though the numbers might need to be adjusted.
I really don't like the gutting nerf given to Spirit Visage. This item is core on some tanky fighters and minus 15 MR really hurts its effectiveness. I believe the magic resistance form Banshee's Veil and Spirit Visage should be the same. The distinction between the two should be "do i need to block that one blitz hook or ahri charm" vs "do i need to sustain and recover" The shield on banshees should regenerate around the same time as the blitz hook: every 20 seconds.. BUT you have to manually activate it, like a Sivir spell shield :) Don't nerf visage, it's fine as it is.
> Don't nerf visage, it's fine as it is. Considering that it's part of the core three rush items - our item metrics would point to that it's decidedly not okay in the current state that it's in.
One problem i see with these changes is an overabundance of cdr. All mages are almost guaranteed to cap now, and will have to strategize and maybe compromise good items to not go over 45%. This may bring items like Ludens, Rabadons, and Void Staff to be seen on every champion, every game. Is this an issue? All other items look great.
> This may bring items like Ludens, Rabadons, and Void Staff to be seen on every champion, every game. Is this an issue? Potentially. One of the things that we've seen about CDR is that it tends to lock in item builds if their isn't enough of it. If there's a single path to 40% - that becomes a fairly common path. By over-infusing CDR into the item system - each CDR item can be individually stronger (as we know that you can't stack all of them) - but a lot of other items start seeing play as well because you can 'finish' your CDR items and then consider from all the non-CDR spaces.
Oh goodness. Upon reading the passive of Rod of Ages and Hextech GLP-07A, my first thought was {{champion:27}} The interaction seems insane. With his poison on, a massive mana pool + his passive, taking damage from champions, and perhaps even an {{item:3003}} With this combination of items, he would be near unkillable. I understand the health gain is dependant on the mana cost, so do all Mana consuming Auras only count as one spell cast, or each tick?
> do all Mana consuming Auras only count as one spell cast, or each tick? They're limited to a rate / second. A spell can only restore up to 25 per cast - and a toggled spell can only restore up to 25 per second.
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Personally I think too many offensive/defensive items that were previously without cdr don't really need it. With too many items containing cdr, it limits your build, because of the cap in place. The hextech change is interesting, and the "spell vamp" change is really interesting and positive for the game to be honest. The mana regen removal is a blatant slap in the face after the mana pot removal.
> With too many items containing cdr, it limits your build, because of the cap in place. It merely prevents you from stacking every item with CDR - you'll be more likely to run into this cap - that's absolutely true - but the number of possible configurations should increase due to there no longer being a small selection of necessary items. It also allows us to make every item with CDR slightly more powerful - as we know that you'll be giving up something by going down one of these items. Put it another way - if hitting 40% CDR was important - and there was only 2 20% CDR items - this limits your builds in a different way - by locking in all potential CDR options as being these two items. Having a surplus of ways to reach maximum CDR is fairly important to ensuring this lockout doesn't occur. We're already seeing the pinch at the moment where most rune configurations are locked out due to the inability to get CDR in the itemization system.
I'm a little confused, seeing as how removing spell vamp is your solution to a case provided where "Vladimir only buys this so we are abandoning it and reworking him." It almost seems like giving up on a play style mechanic that could be so much furthered. Why not simply rework Vladimir, but put a pin in spell vamp and look at new possibilities to how it works? From my point of view spell vamp doesn't currently work because the champion is centered around 1 to 2 of these things: * Low ability scaling high base damage * Area of Effect * High cooldowns So spell vamp can't work if its based off of the champion damage. Gunblade works because it is for hybrids, but spell vamp itself doesn't fit a lot of champions because they aren't all Vladimir who already has spell vamp and heavy hitting spells. If spell vamp was based off of something like total AP then spam champions would get out of control. The AoE gate for healing is a little silly after what you did for Darius, where he gets more healing the more people he hits. Also these MR shifts are neat but its coming off like we need these items faster due to the new items but in the end they are less effective in your full build.
> I'm a little confused, seeing as how removing spell vamp is your solution to a case provided where "Vladimir only buys this so we are abandoning it and reworking him." It almost seems like giving up on a play style mechanic that could be so much furthered. It's more like - we haven't seen the addition of a generic **item-based** spell vamp actually improve the play mechanics of any of the champions that could have access to it. In all of these cases - once spell vamp works for a broad enough set of audience - there is some pool of champions that will then need their laning phases gutted or made extremely binary because we know that after a set quantity of gold - their lane sustain will become basically uncontrollable. It's more of a statement that this kind of effect is fairly difficult to provide via a **gold** based solution - as gold is primarily performance driven - and lanes are as well - so it compounds on top of each other.
As someone that likes to play those supporty mages (Karma and Lulu are both in the top two) in the support position, what do you want the core build path to look like on those supports? Right now, I've been going Sightstone -> Tier 2 gold gen item -> Swiftness boots -> tank items because they're so much more effective than anything else at the moment, keeping you in the fight longer and possibly providing a needed aura to keep your team from getting blown up (Frozen Heart mostly, ADC comps are fun)
> what do you want the core build path to look like on those supports? Honestly, at the moment - I'm not sure but I'd like there to be more options to enhance your ability to contribute to the team - rather than simply becoming more durable. Being more durable should always be an effective route - but some specialization in the enchantress space to give them some unique item outputs that the tank supports don't have would be desirable.
> [{quoted}](name=Xypherous,realm=PBE,application-id=2EAF660193FA3B668D7234B3AEBB530C5AB7F651,discussion-id=79cto3EB,comment-id=00c80000,timestamp=2016-04-11T20:46:58.779+0000) > > Honestly, at the moment - I'm not sure but I'd like there to be more options to enhance your ability to contribute to the team - rather than simply becoming more durable. > > Being more durable should always be an effective route - but some specialization in the enchantress space to give them some unique item outputs that the tank supports don't have would be desirable. Do you feel like the difficulty mage supports have been having in higher level play recently (i.e. generally if you're a mage you won't be played bot lane unless you specifically counter tanks) is as a result of their itemisation failing to distinguish them from tanks?
> Do you feel like the difficulty mage supports have been having in higher level play recently (i.e. generally if you're a mage you won't be played bot lane unless you specifically counter tanks) is as a result of their itemisation failing to distinguish them from tanks? There's a couple of factors here that I haven't been able to fully puzzle through, to be perfectly honest. For a long time, the thought was that - given zero places to *put* tanks, you can't actually run a mage support without sacrificing a ton. That assertion is, at best, flawed in today's environment. I know there's no distinct itemization that's available to them that would swing a game one direction or another - and Targon's is really really powerful early in lane. Then again - there's also the fact that most tank supports just have generally more play-making potential and that's a failure of their kits. Tank supports - in the current kits - are more fun for a lot of people than magey-type supports. It's a tricky space that I'd love to explore more. I'm not going to hit upon a silver bullet any time soon - but I'd like to try to offer some scattering of unique itemization space at least.
Tried it out today, the sustain from Catalyst is sorta unnoticeable because it's so low, but it works well. As well, losing Lost Chapter's passive when it's upgraded to Morellonomicon sucks, especially when building it in tandem with a Tear or ROA. I like the changes to Zhonyas and Abyssal, and to Chalice and Athenes, but the shielding/healing steroid doesn't seem hooked up yet. The Hextech items just seem like something I'd never have a need for, or the item slots for. Tear also feels much more approachable for non-spam mages. I like what you're doing bud.
Thanks for ze feedback. Will likely be doing something on Morello and tuning the values on Catalyst's upgrades. I have to look into the Athene's thing - there's this weird bug where it works sometimes and completely doesn't turn on at others. I assume I've messed up a timing variable somewhere.
Not a fan of the spellvamp change, you are completely discounting Swain and Ryze, (Both champs that benefit CURRENTLY from this ability) not to mention the hilarious stuff you could stack up on Morgana. Simply put you are shafting a great champion and are going to do sortieing (I can only imagine) strange that will make him completely different and not fun to play anymore. Speculation aside I see no reason to take this away. It isn't breaking the game so why destroy a great champion and a great mechanic, and make other champs suffer as well.
> Not a fan of the spellvamp change, you are completely discounting Swain and Ryze, (Both champs that benefit CURRENTLY from this ability) not to mention the hilarious stuff you could stack up on Morgana. We're not removing Spell Vamp the stat - just Spell Vamp available in the item system. Morgana / Ryze / Swain typically didn't buy the items involved and functioned fairly well without it. The so called "stacked" hilarious case is something that more so exists in a theoretical space - from what I can tell, given the purchase rates / win rates of that particular combination. (Granted, data is incredibly noisy in this regard given the low occurence rate.)
Seems like every content creator out on YouTube is using Annie to display how powerful (broken) the Hextech Starburst is. @Xypherous, you've already stated that Annie will be the gauge of this item's viability. https://youtu.be/LrL5MSeWj0w?t=3m54s https://youtu.be/Y6LQcuTjgGo?t=2m12s https://youtu.be/oi8cVOGGvzE?t=8m38s Looks pretty broken to me.
> Looks pretty broken to me. Thanks for the links. I'll definitely look them over. I've already made a couple of iterations on it due to PBE feedback. Unsure when the next PBE push is but there are a couple of easy initial tuning levers I can use to curb some of the cases that I'm seeing with these videos. For the next iteration - I'm making a couple of tweaks just based on some of the feedback I've seen thus far: Basically - it looks like in the roam case - the specifics of the timing of the cooldown actually does matter - so I'll likely be adjusting that a bit just so that some of the repeat gank cases don't occur as often. Additionally - it seems like the item's AP probably needs to go down as its contributing more than the base damage of the active itself - will likely redo rocket damage such that multi-hitting is far more important to benefit fully from the damage. There needs to be a bit more animation lag at the end of the dash and the dash speed seems a little fast - both of these will add some reaction time to their opponents.
> [{quoted}](name=Xypherous,realm=PBE,application-id=2EAF660193FA3B668D7234B3AEBB530C5AB7F651,discussion-id=79cto3EB,comment-id=00ed0000,timestamp=2016-04-12T03:53:12.327+0000) > > Thanks for the links. I'll definitely look them over. I've already made a couple of iterations on it due to PBE feedback. Unsure when the next PBE push is but there are a couple of easy initial tuning levers I can use to curb some of the cases that I'm seeing with these videos. > > For the next iteration - I'm making a couple of tweaks just based on some of the feedback I've seen thus far: > > Basically - it looks like in the roam case - the specifics of the timing of the cooldown actually does matter - so I'll likely be adjusting that a bit just so that some of the repeat gank cases don't occur as often. > > Additionally - it seems like the item's AP probably needs to go down as its contributing more than the base damage of the active itself - will likely redo rocket damage such that multi-hitting is far more important to benefit fully from the damage. > > There needs to be a bit more animation lag at the end of the dash and the dash speed seems a little fast - both of these will add some reaction time to their opponents. Test the belt with 450 units dash, AP ratio 25%>>15%, 45 sec CD, and retain the 0.2 silence.
> Test the belt with 450 units dash, AP ratio 25%>>15%, 45 sec CD, and retain the 0.2 silence. I tried this. 450 units is **crazy**. Specifically - this is longer than some of our dash ranges - it visually looks like it should go through the vast majority of terrain and there's some off-screen cases that are disturbing to contemplate. Additionally, in terms of gameplay - I'd also have to add the ability to "short" the jump for the nova to be effective - because 450 has a tendency to overshoot the target when used in close range.
Point 1: If rocket belt turns out to be too linear, have you tried adding a 0.5 second self-silence after using it? I feel that'd help make it much healthier than just being used as an engage tool for annie. Point 2: Athenes could be used as an active to heal players instead of being tied to shields if it cost a % of a players mana to use, something like 6% perhaps? Artillery mages wouldn't want to waste their mana since they buy mana, but supports would have lower pools and higher regen so it would work out. Point 3: As far as spell vamp goes, I think most players are just saddened by the loss of possibility of additional sustain for mages. Even if it was rarely the right item to buy spell vamp is a very FUN stat, yaknow? Buying it on Annie or Cassio or Elise was quite fun. Wouldn't it be possible to create a mage sustain item that's linear like lifesteal is to fill the role? Something like Soraka's Q healing added to an item? Perhaps with a stacking mechanic on the healing, to make it a strong item on heavy skirmish lanes/games? Lifesteal is a very fun stat to have, particularly when dealing with a lot of poke since it prevents the anti-fun nature of artillery from bothering you as much, and it becomes more of a game of you needing to dodge enough stuff while autoattacking minions to keep healthy enough, whereas without lifesteal it's just a matter of time. I thought of a third point that I haven't seen mentioned yet. Added my first two points as well in case you decide to reply to this one, I'm quite curious particularly about the silence bit. EDIT: Also have a great big chocolate chip cookie for your efforts in replying to as many people as possible, love it. If you posted like 3-4 times a week on the main boards as well I think Repertoir would have serious competition for my favorite rioter here.
> Point 1: If rocket belt turns out to be too linear, have you tried adding a 0.5 second self-silence after using it? I feel that'd help make it much healthier than just being used as an engage tool for annie. It's actually using an animation lockout rather than a hard silence - but the principle is the same. Right now it's not as long as 0.5 seconds (it's like, 0.05 after the 0.25 s dash time) - but I'll likely be looking to extend this out a bit. > Point 2: Athenes could be used as an active to heal players instead of being tied to shields if it cost a % of a players mana to use, something like 6% perhaps? This was raised earlier in the thread. It's an interesting concept but I'm still not sold on granting a heal to everyone that isn't already in the heal / shield role overtly. Active creep is also a fairly large concern here. :/ > Artillery mages wouldn't want to waste their mana since they buy mana, but supports would have lower pools and higher regen so it would work out. Actually, if they can buy Athene's and fully use the passive - they suddenly wouldn't buy mana. They'd have Athene's instead - is a little tenuous here. > Point 3: As far as spell vamp goes, I think most players are just saddened by the loss of possibility of additional sustain for mages. Spell Vamp, as a fantasy, is an extremely powerful one - akin to lifesteal. Lane sustain, I think I can cover with some adjustments to Catalyst and the like - but the idea of going infinite by building raw damage is a very compelling fantasy. Ultimately though - I'm just not sure we have the tools to support it in the item system - where performance is gold driven and the champion picks are incredibly varied. The other aspect of this, from a poke perspective - is that most mages can fight at literally any % - most of them can unleash a full spell rotation (and the spell rotation itself usually contains some aspect of temporary control over your opponents) - which makes a **meaningful** amount of sustain to grant out hard to actually balance. For ADCs - you cannot fight unless you are above a certain threshold of health such that lifesteal has time to kick in - the normal sustained AD pattern makes it far easier to control. SV on the other hand... most values of SV I've put on end-game items has been kicked back with a 'Well.. I could just buy a Rylais and do roughly the same thing.' You have to hit ADC levels of vamp - but these are **burst** characters as well.
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Looking to provide feedback on the new revolver {{item:3145}} having played with it during the weekends, and there are some major concerns with it: Is the intention of the revolver change meant to be a nerf? It is fine to remove spellvamp because you have already explained why early revolver rush strategies are not healthy and needed to be removed - I totally agree, but it is what revolver has turned into that I have concerns with. Before revolver provided spellvamp, a stat that was always up and working. With the new revolver, it gets replaced with a passve that has a 30s cooldown. In this sense, revolver got nerfed because the item doesn't provide something that is always 'on' - which leads to the next concern - the item doesn't fulfil its new intended role effectively. The issue I have with the new revolver is that it is essentially a 'one-trick cheese item'. It basically boils down to this - if the revolver can allow you to 100-0 the opponent, then it works (hello squishy mid laners). Otherwise, if the opponent can survive your burst rotation, the item is essentially made useless for 30s. This is because revolver doesn't provide anything else other than AP when the passive is on cooldown. This doesn't goes well with its intended role of providing favourable trades, it just makes a 'cheese' amplifier item, which brings major counterplay issues as well. Combined with Thunderlords, if an opponent cannot survive the burst, they will flat out just die with low reaction time provided. When it comes to favourable trades, Sheen {{item:3057}} does a much better job at the intended role. You spend the same amount of gold, but because the passive is on such a short CD, i.e. 1.5s, then it is not a useless item when the passive is on CD as it also provides useful stats (mana + CD). Theoretically, Sheen can be procced 20 times within 30s assuming you can pull off spells every 1.5s. Even dialling that back to practicality, achieving 3 procs is easy enough to atleast go break even/or even beat revolver in terms of providing favourable trades. Revolver either needs a new passive that works better in the 'favourable trades' department or it needs to provide another stat apart from AP, so when the passive is on CD, then it does something else in the meanwhile. Currently, the revolver is just sitting there when the passive is on CD because on completion, revolver doesn't provide bonus stats. The new passive also brings up counterplay issues as well. Given that it doesn't fulfil it's intended role effectively, potential for change? Thoughts?
> This is because revolver doesn't provide anything else other than AP when the passive is on cooldown. This doesn't goes well with its intended role of providing favourable trades, it just makes a 'cheese' amplifier item, which brings major counterplay issues as well. I kind of agree with you here - but I think you're underestimating the impact that just having a large amount of AP will have in terms of trading with opponents. > Sheen does a much better job at the intended role. You spend the same amount of gold, but because the passive is on such a short CD, i.e. 1.5s, then it is not a useless item when the passive is on CD as it also provides useful stats (mana + CD). Part of the trouble here is that Sheen's mana / CDR are useful stats - but they don't necessarily contribute to the power of any individual hit. Sheen is fantastic when you are relying mostly on your basic attack to carry the weight of your trading potential (especially for melee). A Vampiric Sceptre - for example, helps you trade quite a bit - but that's just due to the innate power of the stat. Revolver is much the same way - raw AP is a pretty powerful nudge in terms of combat power that. > This doesn't goes well with its intended role of providing favourable trades, it just makes a 'cheese' amplifier item, which brings major counterplay issues as well. Combined with Thunderlords, if an opponent cannot survive the burst, they will flat out just die with low reaction time provided. Yes - this is a particular concern with the item at the moment. The trouble here is that any amount of additional damage (even the one Sheen adds) - does add to a champion's burst damage potential. Ideally, because the item is fairly well aligned with AP - the passive doesn't really need to be all that powerful. The vast majority of Sheen's budget is in the passive. Revolver is the inverse - the vast majority of the budget is in the stat-line. It's meant to be more of a minor passive that helps out every once in a while (Thunderlord combos aside.) > The new passive also brings up counterplay issues as well. Given that it doesn't fulfil it's intended role effectively, potential for change? Thoughts? I'm not sure that it doesn't fulfill the intended role of making sure every direct interactions you have is more tipped in your favor compared to things in similar price points (Sheen does add more passive damage - but your spells have less power - so the net effect heavily depends on your ratio). I know somewhat that Revolver shouldn't have a bias towards melee champions - as you've pointed out, they have a more effective direct comparison (Sheen) - thus the Spell / AP and non-sustained focus is somewhat important here. If it ultimately turns out to be an item that merely augments your burst pattern - that's probably acceptable something we can tune around as we can shift the power of the item more into either AP and less in the passive (so that the passive is just a small nice additional bonus occasionally) - or just reduce the cooldown and proc damage of the item considerably (but that leads to more thunderlords shenanigans. XD)
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> I kind of agree with you here - but I think you're underestimating the impact that just having a large amount of AP will have in terms of trading with opponents. I am confused here. If we are talking about revolver only, 40AP isn't a 'large amount'? It's recipe is two amp. tomes {{item:1052}}, both gives 20 AP each, so in total, that's 40 AP. Revolver itself doesn't give any bonus AP on completion. I am very sure what makes revolver strong isn't the amount of AP it gives, but what it gives on item completion. If revolver was bought for only its AP ignoring anything else it gives, then simply buying a blasting wand is better off since you will save gold from the combine cost and it's more efficient than 2 amp.tomes... If I get what you are saying, then I disagree, I am not underestimating the impact. What makes revolver the real deal is the thing it gives on item completion. Currently, the 12% spellvamp for 330 combine cost is x1000 times better than the new passive. Remove the AP, and I would still buy revolver for its spellvamp. I'm fine with the spellvamp removal but the new revolver passive simply pales in comparison to the previous spellvamp in terms of power level and availability. Otherwise, that's what I meant by being a nerf overall. I am certain the new revolver just serves to make your burst pattern reliable. Because that's all I am seeing on the item now - I pick it up when I know that I can cheese 100-0 a squishy Viktor in mid lane. When the passive is on cooldown, the item becomes useless. The previous revolver gave something that was always up. The good thing about Sheen (also used to give AP back then) is that since its 1.5s CD, each hit doesn't have be that hard, since you can apply it more frequently. This is healthier since it gives more time for the opponent to react to the rate of damage being dished out. The new revolver, again, just loads all that burst into one autoattack, so not so great for a squishy. I don't see how lowering the CD and proc damage of the passive relates to Thunderlords? Thunderlords has a 25s-15s CD and requires you to chain 3 spells/AA's within a certain period of time. I feel if revolver is pushed more into the Sheen pattern, it will be much better overall. Naturally, revolver feels like an item that support AP's that like to autoattack alot between spell casts. It doesn't need to be the exact same profile as a Sheen but somewhat close to ease out the difference between the users and improving counterplay at the same time. Apart from that, it's great you are making Morello's AP higher to compensate for late game builds, but wouldn't that force every AP mana user to go for this item to make up for the loss of AP from Hourglass? Moreso, what about manaless users? The lost of AP on Hourglass cannot be made up anywhere else since they don't go for mana items. Are there any changes to Maw and/or Hexdrinker? I believe this item is still out-of-line. It essentially means any AP burst mage needs to outstat the shield strength inorder to counterplay it, since usually, APs don't have the durability to stick around to deal damage, they have a very small window of opportunity to load their spell combo off before backing away. This doesn't help when the AP is getting lower on items.
> I am confused here. If we are talking about revolver only, 40AP isn't a 'large amount'? This was mostly compared to your Sheen example. While Sheen's passive does add a large amount to someone's sustained trade potential - Sheen's *stats* aren't adding it. So - let's take Sheen's conservative 3 proc count - 300% of base AD or 200 physical damage. You take Revolver passive (100~ magic damage at level 6) and you only need to hit them with a total of 2.5 AP ratio to match Sheen's trade output in the interim. If you're comparing to old Revolver - it is likely that the passive might be lower than Spell Vamp - but Spell Vamp having such variance based on champion is the reason we've moved away from it in the first place. > I'm fine with the spellvamp removal but the new revolver passive simply pales in comparison to the previous spellvamp in terms of power level and availability. Otherwise, that's what I meant by being a nerf overall. It's safe to say that the previous users of Revolver and the new Revolver will be a vastly different set - and thus comparing the power level of Spell Vamp versus the passive is a bit off to me to begin with - given the sheer variance between how you can use Spell Vamp and how your kit skills can take advantage of it. > new revolver passive simply pales in comparison to the previous spellvamp in terms of power level and availability. Otherwise, that's what I meant by being a nerf overall. It's not meant to be a 1:1 replacement for the previous item as almost everything it builds into has been altered as well. It's likely that the people who bought revolver previously will not like this iteration of Revolver and that's perfectly fine. > I feel if revolver is pushed more into the Sheen pattern, it will be much better overall. Naturally, revolver feels like an item that support AP's that like to autoattack alot between spell casts. Specifically, I want to push Revolver **away** from autoattack patterns and focus more on longer spell chains (as the upgrade items do). If you need to autoattck - Sheen or Frostfang is probably the more perfect pattern for that, as you've pointed out. Gunblade has a build path that pushes the power of the autoattack (Cutlass) but the other two items are about moderate cooldown multi-spell moments. The goal here is to make a relatively long cooldown passive rather than sustained patterns. This isn't designed to be a sustained damage item (ala Sheen) - it's merely meant to add damage to trade opportunities, which as the both players get more skilled, tend to come at longer and longer windows. > Apart from that, it's great you are making Morello's AP higher to compensate for late game builds, but wouldn't that force every AP mana user to go for this item to make up for the loss of AP from Hourglass? Archangel's Staff is relatively unpopular at the moment - and it's high end AP cap is much higher than any of its alternatives - if we can get more champions feeling comfortable as an AA build - their AP potential will be much higher than any previous incarnation. Some of this isn't about total available AP - but something closer to what is a realistic build with AP. When Rod of Ages was strong -> Archangel's is just going to be unpopular as it's somewhat insane to go for double rush items. That said - my target number for AP is going to be lower than before - mostly because I know we have a couple of MR item nerfs and thus the cap for magic protection is being lowered on the opposite end. > Moreso, what about manaless users? The lost of AP on Hourglass cannot be made up anywhere else since they don't go for mana items. I'm mostly fine with that. The item system isn't about bringing everyone up to parity - it's about ensuring that everyone has access to a set of specialized perks that they can opt into. The flat mana items here just have the perk of higher damage associated with them as well as some unique bits. For Manaless characters, the benefit of having infinite resources is coupled with the inability to use these items at full efficiency.
Spirit Visage has been a better a choice in almost every situation because of the 10% CDR, 50% more HP/5 and 20% increased healing. Banshee's Veil passive shield has a lengthy CD and is very easy proc early unless you can pull off a good flank or stay away from poke. But even then, most champions that you want to build HP and MR on will go spirit visage due to the more healing. (_specifically_ tanks) Now that banshees offers 200 less HP I don't see it being more viable than spirit visage, even if it is cheaper. The buffs to visage just outweigh the 450g decrease on banshees. For example, Adc's that face a AP heavy team and want to avoid an enemy invading their back-line may pick up banshees but the fact that visage offers 25% increased healing from life steal, it may just be a better route to get QSS and visage adding that the QSS path can build up to more lifesteal once finished. Then again, if the enemy team has a knockup engage like malphite.. go banshees. Now this sounds a little unbalanced and would certainly need a better look at, but if banshees had an active spellshield duration for (x)seconds with a (_90?_)second active cd. It would precisely fit its purpose and design better along with creating more skill mechanics. Also being that it's in an item slot, it's not as easy to time as it is for someone playing sivir or nocturne unless its keybinded specifically to what's comfortable<-- [pro-tip btw] [Deep breath] so that's my take on it, lemme know what you think.
> The buffs to visage just outweigh the 450g decrease on banshees. Uncertain whether this is a net buff overall - to be honest. Visage has merely just had it's power shifted into healing from pure tankiness. > Now that banshees offers 200 less HP I don't see it being more viable than spirit visage, even if it is cheaper. Banshee's Veil is not something we're comfortable as a core item. Visage's identity, however, will always be a core item on certain healing types of tanks - hence - the goal of trying to make Veil as viable as Visage isn't the goal we're shooting for. Visage is something that, depending on the character, you know with 100% certainty that you'll opt into. > Banshee's Veil passive shield has a lengthy CD and is very easy proc early unless you can pull off a good flank or stay away from poke. But even then, most champions that you want to build HP and MR on will go spirit visage due to the more healing. (specifically tanks) From our previous experiences with Veil - we would be deeply unhappy with Spellshield being able to be picked up on a large portion of the champion pool in a single game. It's not something that we'd want core on anyone but the most specialized characters - so the item becomes good enough for a broad subset of fighters, tanks and carries - we'd likely just nerf the item again because we hate the game health state that occurs when there's a bunch of spell blocks in the game - regardless of whether they are active or pasive. The notable power of this version of Banshee's Veil isn't actually in the power of the complete item. We're trying a different tactic of making it mostly about being powerful when reacting to things rather than being a thing you just plan on getting as your default MR item. It's mostly in the build path - you can sink 1200 gold into straight MR and still have a final upgrade option for all those cloaks.
Am I the only one looking at Hextech Starburst right now (post-update) and thinking this is possibly an item without a use right now? The 0.25s post-dash spell lockout on top of the actual dash travel time means that any spell with a cast time is essentially barred from dash > spell interactions. I can't imagine Annie ever buying this with the intent to engage on someone because dash > Tibbers has a combined 0.75s delay on it now, unless I'm reading it wrong? That's not inherently a bad thing, of course, but the problem is I don't think the item has any other strengths going for it right now. 275 range on the dash over 0.25s is whatever, it's not bad but it's only really good for juking skillshots rather than dashing away from people. On a 40 second cooldown, that's a mediocre defensive tool. 60 AP is a huge trade-off for that little bit of safety - why not just take Frost Cannon and get some additional self-peel while not gimping your build? I think you guys are so worried about an on-demand dash active breaking the game that you've attacked the item from every end and made it useless in all cases. If you were hoping to use it as a poor man's Flash, you can't anymore (this is probably good). If you are an immobile mage who just wants a way to run away, it's not particularly amazing at that and you're losing a lot of damage in exchange for that safety (especially as you won't ever use the damage on the active). If you just liked the stats and wanted the burst active (I was looking forward to it on Elise as a Liandry's replacement) then... the stats are being made worse for you anyway and the spell lockout sucks. I kind of feel like nobody's gonna buy this, with the possible exception of supports because it's cheap, builds from Revolver (a powerful artificial damage amp for the mid-game), and provides you mobility that you can use for a few different things (notably Sona and Nami can both dash, auto you with their slows and then follow up with relevant CC, Blitz can dash with his speedup on and knock you up, then everything else, etc). You guys seem so scared of it breaking the game that you've been way, way too cautious with it. Just a thought. _______________________________________ Another note is that you guys seem set on the names for the new Hextech Items now and I know this isn't the most interesting part of the discussion for you but I really wish you'd reconsider the names, if only for consistency with Gunblade. Obviously they're Hextech so it's kinda fun to call them tech-y model names but they're supposed to feel cool to buy. I don't feel very excited about buying... a sequence of numbers. "Hextech Frost Cannon" was a wonderful name for that item and I'm sure you'd have found something good for the fiery one too.
> Protobelt Your concerns are valid here - but in practice, I've still found the dash to be pretty damn powerful even with all these restrictions internally - but ideally, I'd rather be happy with something that we are comfortable maintaining in the long term rather than go through the 'But is it **reaaallly** broken?' kind of item cycles we've seen in the past with some other items. > I don't feel very excited about buying... a sequence of numbers. "Hextech Frost Cannon" was a wonderful name for that item and I'm sure you'd have found something good for the fiery one too. *(I totally agree with you on item names.)* *(However, we have various obligations to old Refer a Friend commitments, where we would name item content after various people - hence the various sequence of odd names - we have to get them in if we can fit them - it kind of wrecks havoc on a lot of the cool things we could do with the names.)* *(You can pretend it's short for Glacial Pulse? Gelid Prototype?)*
Long time {{champion:61}} main here, and I can't stand the new {{item:3174}} . First of all, what I'm looking for in the isn't a cheeky heal, its the resources to go toe to toe in a extended teamfight or siege. The heal on {{item:3174}} is to me a one off, that while nice, I'm very afraid will cause a champion that is always strong, but never feels like she lacks counterplay to get nerfed over an item she doesn't even want. If you want the item to be more mage-support/support centric then give is mana regen tied to your shielded/healed target taking damage within 5 seconds of you shielding them. I understand you trying to gut the item from being a infinite well of mana for mages like {{champion:115}} or {{champion:63}} but supporty mages like orianna can be extrodinarly mana intensive if your using your mana to assist the team. I don't know how many times I've tapped out on mana on {{champion:61}} (also easy to do this on {{champion:43}} , {{champion:117}}, etc) shielding damage or using my dissonance principally to speed up/slow down allies/enemies. You want to do something mages have needed for a LONG time: significantly nerf the ap on {{item:3151}} and remove its magic pen, but make the burn true damage. As stands, unless your playing a mage with % damage in their kit, your completely helpless to deal with a team with 1-2+ tanks each with 4000 health and 160 magic resist, because you gate the burn on a liandry with MR. Liandry was designed to counter a health stacking meta (double warmogs volibear S2) that doesn't exist any longer because so much health has been build into defensive items that tanks and bruisers get both stats in spades. Doing the above changes to a liandry would ensure that its a item that you go to if and only if their is enough problem tanks/bruisers to justify it.
> I'm very afraid will cause a champion that is always strong, but never feels like she lacks counterplay to get nerfed over an item she doesn't even want. There are **soo many** people and situations that would disagree with you on this front. Orianna has had numerous occassions in her lifetime suppress a wide variety of champions. She's has very rarely not been a dominant pick when people get serious about the game. There are a lot of changes that can affect a champion's power level. Keeping a champion's power level static is a sympathetic rationale a player's don't necessarily want their effectiveness curbed by factors outside of their control. However, if people were actually consistent about this approach - You might also argue for no one in mid ever being nerfed - as eventually, that will indirectly nerf Orianna for a matchup you didn't even care about, for example. This stance protests Zed being nerfed - as that will cause Orianna to rise in power. > significantly nerf the ap on and remove its magic pen, but make the burn true damage. On the surface, this looks like an ideal solution - if the problem is MR - let's just ignore MR entirely. However, the changes you've proposed make this item the best item for bruiser-tanks as the only way to scale the item is **uptime** - which mages typically have very poor access to - while tanks have access to *in spades*. It's basically the most brutal sunfire you could make. Once balanced - this item basically says 'Run unkillable supertanks - because they are the only ones that can kill other unkillable supertanks.' That's somewhat similar to the state we're currently in. By removing the ability for the item to synergize with properties that mages actually have (Base damage x Magic Penetration - scaling additional damage with % Magic Penetration) - what you've actually done is created an item that has greater synergy with characters like Sejuani because the best way to scale the damage of this item is just being able to apply the damage consistently.
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