Ashe Update Feedback Thread

Hi guys, Since Ashe is going to be on PBE now, I wanted to leave brief context post explaining what's going on, as well as provide a place for you guys to give feedback on power, bugs, bad feels, clunkiness, or whatever else. Without typing up a whole wall of text, I'll cut straight to the abilities: Base Stats * AA missile speed 2000 >>> 2500 * AS/lvl 4.0 >>> 3.33 Passive - Frost Shots * Permaslow moved from Q to Passive. * Slow strength scales with character level * Ashe no longer has a _chance_ to crit. She never crits targets that don't have her passive on them, but _always_ crits targets that do have it for (math stuff below, since I know people will ask or be confused): * (TotalAD)x1.1+(TotalAD)x((CritChanceStat)x(1+(CritDamageStat))) * Let's say Ashe has IE, PD, and 200AD. Under this model, she deals 385 damage (200x1.1+200x.55x1.5). * With an IE and 100% Crit, she deals her ADx2.6 on targets with her passive on them. * Etc. Q - Ranger's Focus * Ashe builds Focus stacks by attacking, up to 5 stacks. * When activated, she gains AS and her Passive slow is improved for 4 seconds. * If she consumed 5 stacks of Focus, her AA also transforms to a flurry attack for the duration, which is effectively additional AD * During the flurry attack, Ashe will Crit (from her passive) and Lifesteal, but will only apply on-hit effects like BotRK and Braum passive on the first arrow of each flurry attack W - Volley * Mostly unchanged, except it does a bit less damage, has a bit lower CD early game, and has better blocking gameplay now (no more free damage through minion waves) E - Hawkshot * No longer passively grants additional gold on last-hit * Is now global and on ammo, but the recharge rate is longer than the old cooldown R - Enchanted Crystal Arrow * Unchanged except for a small nerf where the area slow around the ECA target is now her passive slow rather than a 50% slow As I mentioned, please feel free to leave feedback here. Pending how busy I am getting her ready for release and managing a few other projects, I'll try to stop in regularly to respond to your posts. Cheers, Repertoir
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I need some clarification on her passive and Q, specifically as to whether or not they are on-hit effects or one of those rare on-attack effects. Will these effects interact with Runaan's Hurricane?
Passive is just a slow added to her attacks. The first Q missile will apply on-hits like BotRK; the next 4 on the attack won't. Runaan's fires 2 bolts for every single attack during a Focus-empowered Q. It feels pretty cool.
Can she still get Statikk Shiv crits, since the lightning effect of that can crit? Or are those also increased by crit chance on slowed foes?
She is guaranteed to Crit Statikk Shiv whenever her passive crits (whenever she has slowed the target already), but she will do so at her modified passive Critical Damage rate.
{{item:3071}} : Does her new Q apply its passive effect once or with every arrow? Essentially, the question is whether the Q is coded as seperate instances of damage (a la Lulu passive) or simply an on-hit effect with a fancy animation. Base stats: Unchanged? Don't think so - at least her high AS/level (AS growth factor) should be decreased if she gets an AS steroid into her kit.
All of the Q arrows will crit in accordance with her passive. It's coded as separate instances of damage I've lowered her AS/lvl slightly, and added it to the list above. Thanks!
According to the damage numbers I saw on her Q preview video, it looks like she shoots a barrage of 3 arrows every enhanced auto-attack. This would mean she fully stacks cleaver with 2 auto-attacks. That is...pretty insane.
Focus-empowered Q attacks are 5 arrows per attack. Each arrow applies Black Cleaver, so yeah, she can put 5 stacks of Black Cleaver on per AA while it is active.
I want to leave a suggestion about her Q. I'm really hoping her Q doesnt work on towers and inhibs, mostly hoping it applies to champions and minions
Her Q works on towers and inhibs, but Focus cannot be built on structures, only maintained. For instance, if she has 4 Focus stacks and attacks a turret, the 4 stacks will be refreshed, but she won't get the 5th.
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what about if you get 5 on minions and use q on the tower. obviously the AS steroid works but does the Q bonus damage work and also. i asume the "crits that are not crits" that she has doesnt work on towers does it? or are u going for her to be a late game tower killer like jinx and trist cause that is what will happen if both of those apply to buildings.
If you stack it on non-structure sources and then use Q and attack a structure, you'll still get the flurry on the structure, but it won't crit.
It's him^ the Nidalee rework guy. Get him, kappa. Nice job on the Nidalee rework. This rework on Ashe I'm excited for since it seems to introduce new mechanics. Meddler always said he wanted to introduce new spell effects based off crit chance. Are we gonna see anymore in the future?
Yep, I'm the Nidalee guy :p. As for changes to crit and its effects in the future, we don't necessarily have plans for a crit overhaul or anything, but I'd guess that effects based on crit aren't out of the question.
I'm really looking forward to her abilities since she was my first main <33 Really digging her Passive and Q atm. Hopefully there aren't going to be massive bugs and I'll play her asap. <3
Cool, glad you're excited. If you get a chance to play her on PBE and notice anything out of the ordinary or buggy, make sure to post it so I can look into it. Thanks!
P.S, Does Statikk shiv stack with the Active Q aa's?
Only the first of the 5 arrows will stack the Shiv.
So does the passive gold gain (for last hitting) still remain on the E or was that removed? Also, do you think that her E still being a utility skill will allow her to compete with the other more prevalent marksmen, or are you still experimenting with her kit as whole? Thanks!
Yeah, it's removed. I added it to the post above. Sorry about the oversight on that one.
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HOLD THE PHONE FOLKS STOP EVERYTHING Tell me, _**TELL ME MURAMANA DOESN'T WORK ON HER Q**_
It certainly won't ship to Live with it working. Honestly, though, it may work in the upcoming PBE build. If it does, I'm sure I'll know very soon :p
Is there a time limit for stack duration (like skarner Q) or do they stay till you use them (like annie passive)?
4 seconds on the Focus stacks, and 4 seconds on the Q buff duration. So... not like Annie. The spell is intended to have a payout for building it in combat and not just pressing it right away. That said, you can build it on minions, and it is built by just applying your passive, so Volley and ECA can stack it up multiple targets at a time.
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4 seconds?? are you joking,are you?? please at least tell me they decay one at time like Jinx's and not all together
Nope, all at once. They may be able to decay one at a time if it's necessary though. Good suggestion. I'll think about that.
Does the bonus damage from her passive work on other slows (ie. other champions, items like IBG) or just the slow from her passive?
Only her own. Internally, the passive was 'all slowed and stunned targets' for awhile, but the gameplay created there didn't ultimately end up being very interesting.
This is a bit short and maybe a tiny bit irrelevant, but is this more complicated version of Ashe gunna still be the tutorial champ? Because the tutorial does teach new players Ashe, and it may need to be updated and now that she's a bit more confusing I don't know if she's the best champ for the job so... Just putting it out there is all.
We did some tutorial checks, and I think all Ashe needs to do in the tutorial is learn Volley and buy a Thornmail, so she should still be good on that front. Good question though!
I'd like to know how this affects her early game, as you seemed to have removed the 'randomness' from crit on her, which is a huge part of most adc, and especially if she now requires specialized rune pages to 'maximize' her potential. Standard adc rune pages include 1 crit mark, but without having tried her to see how it work exactly, I can't really say for sure. Judging by the video it was very difficult for me to see how her passive was stacked, is there any way to create a visual indicator? You mention 'weak moments' could you elaborate on this, cause as I can read from this, she has a 'weak' early game, and not only scales incredibly fast, but also her damage output/utility increase the longer you spend fighting her. Edit: Also would like to know about any changes to her AS animation, if it finish faster or slower, now that you've increased the missile speed.
You shouldn't need an optimized crit runepage to play her. She gets a visual and audio indicator that tells her when her Q passive is stacked and can be cashed in for the bonus. Given the new Q and changes to her W, Ashe should feel weaker at the very beginning of combat (when she hasn't stacked Q, and where her old crit passive would have come into play) and when opponents are hiding behind minions or other targets (W does not sometimes pass through things anymore). There haven't been changes made to her attack animation, just the missile speed.
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Have you though about adding range to your e as you rank it up. Like lvl 1 4000 range then lvl 4 10k range then lvl 5 global?. Just an idea, so there's a point in ranking it up.
Yeah we've thought about it, but having it be global with a strong cooldown incentive per rankup seemed like a better route to go. It's totally cool if Hawkshot is maxed last every time, as far as I'm concerned.
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what if instead of a strong CD insentive there is NO CD insentive but u can get more stacks saved and/or it lasts longer in place (as in the way the new blue trinket drops a ward) i think that would give more purpose to it. otherwise i think it is used infrequently enough that most players will have 2 stacks up most of the time.
That's pretty cool, and honestly something I hadn't considered, though going up by 1 charge per rank would mean at least 5 max charges at max rank, and increasing on some ranks and not other may feel odd.
I'm concerned that her new passive is too weak. What I'm seeing is Ashe loses her burst damage, and she cannot get random crit burst. Consistency is nice, but consider that once other ADCs reach a high crit chance, they are likely to get a few crits in their first few attacks. Ashe would need long engagements before her DPS overtakes another ADC's damage. Also, she will have many situations where her first attack is against a non-slowed target. In theory you can always slow them first with Volley or ECA, but you don't always get to do so. So in those cases Ashe gets much less damage than an ADC who can crit on the first two attacks, and will probably get at least one crit once they have IE + PD. It's weird. Ashe is going from having an explosive start to engagements, to requiring long and sustained engagements in order to be effective. And I don't think it looks viable with these numbers. She's getting 10% more damage vs slowed targets but losing crits pretty much. Her DPS just won't be good except for long fights where her 10% might give her an edge. I think the bonus damage on her passive simply needs to be higher, unless this new Q is totally amazing and carries her.
Her effective dps when building crit is unchanged. Although she won't crit up front, keep in mind she has a steroid on her Q spell now. Her burst is likely going to be lower up front, and I think that's okay, since up the up front burst on her Live passive seems more like a coincidence than part of her identity.
Does the Q apply manamune?
Only on one of the 5 missiles from the Q.
How does LuLu's Pix work on her Flurry, will her enhanced AA be applied 5 times per attack or will it be only applied once per attack?
Lulu's Pix will only work on the first of the Flurry attacks unless I special case it.
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Will Doran's Shield, Block and Unyielding affect her Q? It'd be pretty unfortunate if they could slice 60 damage off of each autoattack.
Damage from the first of the 5 arrows will be affected by all Doran's Shield, Block, and Unyielding. Damage from the remaining 4 will likely only be affected by Unyielding.
(copied from [here](http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/Hic3Ej1M )) What's the reasoning behind the changes to the width and range of Ashe's Volley? In the update article there's no mention of this change, but the cone of fire in the Volley preview video was noticably a different shape. There's all this talk of making Ashe the utility adc, but her ability to slow over a wide area seems hindered compared to before. Ashe's W also already had silly poke range to begin with, now it's even further? http://i.imgur.com/IqryGuZ.png
Volley should be about the same range and width as you're used to, though I think did update the old range indicator which I believe is just highly inaccurate on Live. The small nerfs to the width are somewhat made up for by the fact that the individual Volley missiles are now wider.
How about giving her assists from champs revealed by Hawkshot? Revealing enemy champs can be vital to her team getting a kill but the game doesn't reward her for it. The argument against this would probably be that you could just use it when it's not needed in order to get an assist, but you can make the same argument for any non-damaging skill that generates assists. Even though you can use these skills at unnecessary times to get assists, it's still important that they generate assists for the times when they're used correctly. The same should be true of vision abilities like Hawkshot.
The only problem here is that it's pretty difficult to determine when Ashe gave important information to her team with Hawkshot, though it's something I can check out potentially.
Will Ashe be getting an updated itemlist with this rework? If not I feel like she probably should as it sounds like runaan's could be really good on her.
I'll be looking for feedback as to whether Runaan's is actually good on her. Historically, it's been a bit of a gimmick build on most characters (Kalista being the main exception), but I made sure it worked and looked awesome for this just in case. If it turns out Runaan's actually seems like the most effective build path for the character, especially for lower level players (who tend to need the most help from Rec Items), then I'd consider changing her rec list.
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The first attack can naver crit?? that's bad i don't understand the formula you gave to get 385 damage,but with normal chance to crti she would make 200 damage 45/100 and 500 55/100....the average is 365 that is 20 less BUT her first shot was always a crit (500) while now it will be only normal (200)...sho lost huge burst to get VERY small damage bonus per shot?in this example she needs 15 shots to do the same damage as before Correct me if i'm wrong.... and AS per level has also been nerfed so i don't even know if her DPS is higher now. but i i know that she does less damage And please don't tell me Q does damage because we all know that you can't get 5 stacks of that passive when you fight an opposite adc in lane. Maybe it will be useful against tanks ,but not in lane...and W has also been nerfed in lane..and no extra gold.... Lane will be a nightmare now....late game has to be checked
I think your damage calculation excludes the baseline 10% bonus, which would exactly make up for the lost 20 damage.
Moobeat wanted me to ask you about the scaling on the passive's slow and the damage calculation for max stack Q.
Passive slow I believe is: 5/11/17/23/29/35% at levels 1/4/7/10/13/16 Damage calculation for max stack Q: .23/.24/.25/.26/.27 Total AD per arrow for a total of 1.15/1.20/1.25/1.30/1.35 Total AD per basic attack
Is her new passive capped? Or can you benefit from more than 100% crit chance?
The CritChanceStat part of the equation is capped at 100%, but by combining it with CritDamageStat, it can go higher.
I have a question. When {{champion:11}} activates Highlander, he is immune to all slowing effects. So when {{champion:22}} Ashe attacks ult-on {{champion:11}}, doesn't she get any crits from her passive? Wonder about any other similar cases, too. ({{champion:25}} 's Black Shield, {{champion:2}}'s Ragnarok, etc.)
Currently, yes, these characters could not be crit by Ashe.
Great job on the update so far!!! She's been pretty fun to play, her volley seems a bit underwhelming but serves nicely to get focus stacks, the E is soo OP although the 80 second cooldown keeps it balanced, and nothing really changed with the ult. Bugs so far?: She doesn't always crit, even though I built 130% crit on her she still missed out on critical damage.
Thanks for the feedback! Is anyone else experiencing times where they thought they should crit (enemy has passive on it already when you basic attack it) but didn't?
This rework is really nice, but the passive is really too OP in my opinion because there's something i saw last game i played Ashe : when you ulti, for example, 1 guy who has 4 minions next to him, your Q passive get charged up to 5 stacks, same for the W ; it must be too strong... Plus it's not written in the W toolbox. Is it a bug or a hidden trick ? :0
It's written in the Q tooltip that applying your character passive (Frost Shot) builds stacks. Volley builds stacks, so it is intended to build Q stacks :)
How does her new crit mechanic work with the "Frenzy" Mastery that gives AS when you crit? Would it stack it on every hit of her marked targets?
Yep, it does!
Repertoir, First I would just like to say that you have done an amazing job with the touch-up on Ashe. I have loved this champion since I fist played her in the Tutorial. You managed to keep her core identity intact and, in my opinion, enhance her essence as the Frost Archer with this new kit. I have only tried her once, but I'll be sure to keep testing her out to fish out any nasty little bugs that might remain. One bug I have noticed is the slow information on her passive seems reluctant to give up the extra 20% granted by activating her Q; i.e. at level 18 the passive states she slows her enemies by 55% rather than 35%. I very much like what you have done with Ranger's Focus and the small changes on her W and E. I'll continue to try her out in her skins to see if there are any VFX bugs going on. Once again, thank you for working on my favorite champion in League of Legends. #favoriterioter
Hmm, I'll definitely look into her slow to see if it's bugged. Thanks!
Repertoir, I feel like her Q with max 5 stacks isn't as strong as her Q with lower stacks, I wasn't doing more damage with max Q but actually less damage. I think some numbers may need to be tweaked for the max Q to be a better steroid in my opinion. Also, anyway to reduce the cooldown on her Q similar to {{champion:18}} E and Q? Maybe adding a passive effect to her Q like autoing a champion or adding a cool passive so her W has some unique synergy with her Q?
W already has a soft synergy with her Q in that hitting multiple targets with W stacks Q faster. I probably won't add a CD refund mechanic to her Q because we don't really want it taking over her gameplay entirely.
I'd like to ask you a question. What's your opinion about the interaction between new passive and Frenzy(offense mastery)? Because all attacks on targets that have Frost Shots are considered as mini-crits, all attacks except the first arrow on a target activates Frenzy buff. So, if Ashe starts with just a single crit chance rune, she can get 5-15% free AS from the early game. I succeeded in get 3 Frenzy stacks at Lv.2, without any crit chance items. Edit: Tried to upload a screenshot but just keep failing... Owwww
She doesn't actually need any crit runes/items to crit from her passive due to the baseline 10% crit built into it. It's intended that she has high uptime on Frenzy, even in lane.
{{champion:22}} + {{item:3046}} {{item:3046}} {{item:3031}} {{item:3072}} Pressing Q without 5 stacks of focus will result in much higher DPS compared to the one you&#039;d get if you triggered her new ability called **Flurry of Arrows**. Just spamming crits on the same target like no tomorrow deals way more damage. Is that intended? I was under the impression that Flurry of Arrows was intended as a steroid.
Flurry should definitely be higher damage. If it's not, I'd love to see a video of that being the case...
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so after playing the new ash and reading allot of the comments and doing some math here are my thoughts general- this change definitively solidifies ash into a utility ADC but it also adds a late game hyper-carry viability that i think was missing before. i think that the rushed items have to be IE and PD and then the remaining core is RH (and CD boots because the Q has a long CD and needs to be up as much as posible and there are not any really good CD items for ADC) but RH does not need to be 3rd item. RH i think is def core because of the synergy with building focus stacks because in a team fight or if minions are around u can now have 5 stacks in 2 atks. 1 atk if u use your W. meaning that the Q can be almost instantly used to its full potential. also the utility brought by slowing 3 enemies at a time is amazing. and finally once you move on from your initial target to another target chances are with RH that enemy likely already has the slow applied so you will get your crit right of the bat no delay. her focused Q will be an amazing tower killing steroid which is what gives her the late game potential. and to anyone claiming no burst on ash i can only say that the focused Q is amazing burst and if you are careful in your lane positioning and trade timing combined with ashes above average range and slow you can still lane with no worse weaknesses than any other immobile hyper carry. recommended changes: stacks- i would say that the time on the stacks should be long enough for them to last the time for 1 wave to be replaced by the other alowing you to keep stacks up OR (not both) make the stacks fall of one at a time. my reason for this is that in order to maintain your stacks you will have to AA often enough that you will probably push the wave and i think that this is a large enough weakness that if you are going to risk pushing then you should be rewarded for it. also i found that with the short time the enemy can just run from the ash when the focus is up at no real cost to them for the amount of time it is available it should at least be enough time to deny some CS hawkshot- * i would love to have a very small mini map icon indicating the hawkshots location for clarity. * i do not think it should grant assists because it is global. * I think that the reward for ranking it should not be CD i think that with stacks it is def up as often as needed. rather i like the ideas someone else gave of it adding as SMALL! MS buff for the first X distance of it for all allied champs going in the direction of the shot. i think this enhances her utility identity and makes hawkshot crystal arrow an even more viable long range engage. (if this idea is used assist should be given for the MS buff because that would NOT be global) side note: i think this could make ash a viable top lane bruiser because when using the core i said above you can finish with the new cleaver and a frozen mallet for a decent build. summary: i think the changes are great and would love to have your thoughts on the viability of my change ideas and also would love to know if more changes are still likely or if there are probably only going to be a few tweaks to the numbers involved. edit: as for the focus stacks if the enemy can see the animation showing the stacks are up i would like to ask that it ONLY show when at 5 stacks NOT wen u are at 5 stacks and your Q is off CD other things of the like don't show when a skill is available just the stacks. and i think that telling the enemy when BOTH are available is to strong an indicator for them. thank you for the awesome new champ changes i look forward to your response have an awesome day!
Currently, the buff duration on Q is intentionally low so that it will fall off between waves. The payout on cashing in 5 stacks gets to be pretty high because she can't just have it up whenever she wants it.
One korean player who doesn't have a PBE account asked me to leave following question: 'Do the furry attacks count as AoE attacks like Lulu's pixy passive? Since they can crit, can Evasive and Reinforced Armor (Tier 4 defensive mastery) be applied at the same time?'
They count as single target attacks that don't proc on-hits, but do proc Lifesteal and crit. So they will only be mitigated by Reinforced Armor, but not Evasive.
Question: How does BT work with Ashes Q active?
She lifesteals off Q active, so it should work as expected.
Hi, I've just tried the rework and I had a few thought to share: 1. First of all Ashe now feels a lot more satisfiying, from the badass effect of the minigun-active Q to the active use of the passive, which encourages what an adc as her should be doing, poking and autoatacking, instead of saving time to charge a critical strike. 2. I have just played a fast game and I can't give a consistent opinion, but she looks quite good in pretty much all stages of the game, appart from lacking mobility. Where is she supposed to shine now? I find her early safe, where you can slowly farm without many problems, and from your midgame when you start building your IE you start being quite dangerous. I know that multiplying the damage dealt by the crit chance is in theory the same as having a random chance to criticaly strike, but Ashe's passive is so much more reliable than the random critical strike itself. By the lategame your passive and Q deal a huge amount of damage. I tried building both PD and Shiv and I was able to reach 2.25 attack speed, and by that point your damage is insane, I would say OP but I can't really conclude that yet with only one game, especially because it was simply vs bots. 3. You pointed several times how problematic was the idea of a permaslow, I expected you to come up with anything to avoid her having a constant slow, did you just gave up or changed your mind about the toxicity of the permaslow? 4. I've noticed that if your Q extra arrows stack the Black Cleaver it might be a good option to change Last Whisper with Black Cleaver, it gives you 400 Health more, 20 % CDR, some movement speed and almost the same ability to penetrate armor. What do you think about this? Sorry for the long post and the possible writing mistakes.
Permaslow is probably not something we'd support on a new champion, but it's Ashe's thing, so we kept it around. For those that would say "it was also Skarner's thing," the fact that he builds tanky and just sits on you is what makes that so different. When Ashe gets jumped on, she will still just die most often.
Current thoughts on Ashe: It really, really feels like you're not getting your crit's worth. The inability to crit normally means that you have to get two successive shots off on someone (or volley aa), but that is a rare case when trading. It's far more common to get one aa in between farming minions. The inability to crit normally also makes Statikk Shiv much weaker on her, since you will never crit on the first attack (and so shiv will not crit either), and that kinda cuts down on the Ashe damage I've come to know and love. I understand that the slow itself is a pretty strong ability to apply on basic attacks and it is a pretty great thing, but I also feel like the crit part of the passive seems underwhelming sometimes. I think that if Ashe could still crit normally (but do the modified damage, so still only critting for 110% damage early), that might help? I dunno. I like playing Ashe, I really do, but I kind of expect that when I have 25 kills, Infinity Edge, PD, and Statikk Shiv, I should be killing people a lot faster than I saw myself actually doing. It feels underwhelming in comparison to other adcs. That said, it feels really good to play. And it's smart that you can't get focus stacks from hitting towers, because otherwise Ashe would obliterate towers even faster than she does now.
Crit should be 1:1 the same dps, outside of the first shot, which you can get around by applying your passive with W.
About Ashe's volley though, >Enemies can block multiple arrows from Volley, but will only take damage from the first. There's been a[ thread ](http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/VRiAMVAA-ashes-new-w) about this, and I find it quite persuasive, since if the tank just absorbs all the damage from her W while standing right in front of her... Uh... It might be a good thing for the enemies, or maybe as I come to think of it, might be an important gameplay feature as Ashe players might have to think once more before spamming their volleys, I guess? Is that the intended effect?
I want tanky guys to feel good about getting in her face and shutting her down, and I want Ashe to feel good for keeping her distance to hit more people with Volley. By making this change, Volley takes on more of its own identity, and moves further from something like Graves' Buckshot.
I got a chance to try it finally. Ashe is my favorite ADC and has been for a few years. I like everything besides Volley. It feels really bad. There are many cases where the entire thing just disappears and it looks stupid and is ineffective. This skill doesn't do enough damage to justify having such potentially bad use cases. Also, Volley was fine as it was. There are 6 minions in a wave and 7 arrows. This means that only one arrow makes it through a minion wave. So while it is possible to get hit behind minions, you can almost always avoid that one arrow, and that is assuming she goes close to the wave so that no arrows go to the sides. Usually when you see somebody get hit through the wave it's because Ashe waits for the wave to thin out and also goes close to the wave. I don't see why this should be taken away because again, Volley doesn't actually do that much damage. This also really feels bad for farming and waveclear. It's pretty much impossible to hit the caster minions now, so Volley is now very inefficient as an AoE skill. I think this is a huge problem because Volley is likely not worth the mana cost anymore except for specific positioning. This seems like a change which gives enemies a lot more gameplay around Volley and takes away a lot from the Ashe player's experience. My suggestion is compromise. Keep the old Volley except allow champions (not minions) to block up to 2 arrows. This gives enemy players some blocking gameplay without ruining many of the things that feel good about Volley. I suggest just 2 arrows because it honestly just looks really dumb when you volley a guy in point blank and you literally see nothing come out. - Side note: I think Q is overtuned but maybe it's just too easy to stack with how many arrows Volley has.
Sorry that Volley feels bad, but it is somewhat intended that it's not as much just free damage as it used to be. I'd encourage you to try and change your positioning or cast timings to make it work.
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Could Heartseeker Ashe basic attack more lovely sfx? I miss the sounds, that's why I bought it :<{{champion:22}}
Particles on skins should be mostly unchanged (except for new stuff), so I'll try to get that sorted out.
Hi, maybe you could give little bit of attack speed to each stack of Q, because it feels like you only get a reward with 5 stacks, but if you dont reach all the stacks you get nothing, maybe a little bit of attack speed or movement speed for each stack :D
That's pretty much the point of the spell, though. The decision players need to make is "Can I spend a few seconds building this up for the big payout? Or do I need the slow/AS this very second?"
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PLease let her ultimate apply frost shot. It's very strage that i would do more damage to the enemies i don't want to focus (in lane i stun adc and i want to focus adc not the slowes support close to him). A damage reduction to the ultimate can balance this buff but this way the ultimate will fit her kit more...you made changes to volley to help her getting stacks. Ok so let her ulti do the same. Ultimate already got a nerf to AoE slow....nerf damage to 200-350-500 but let the arrow apply frost shot on the primary target please
I believe her ult does apply Frost Shot in addition to the stun. It definitely should. I'll check.
I have seen a lot of post about Ashe's volley already, but I'd like to add my two cents on the matter. The good. I like that it is a denser shot and that the arrows can be blocked. It allows tanks/supports/melee champs to get in her face and make her less effective. That is supposed to be the downfall of ADC's; high damage from afar, but dies quickly when confronted up close. I like that it applies a slow like before. From what you stated before, you want Ashe to be a more utility and the slow attacks and abilities suit this place well. On that note, I feel that her W is lacking. The base damage has been lower horrendously and the slow on it is no different than the auto-attack. From my understanding and experience with ADC's, skill shots like these are supposed to be these champion's poke. Its supposed to extend their damage beyond where their auto-attack can reach. This ability certainly reaches there, but does nothing for here when a hit is scored. In my honest opinion, I would like to see one of two things happen with it. One option is to add a very small boost the the base slow (as like +5% frost shot slow) and increase the damage to those hit. The ability stands to let those that take the whole volley get away scott free. You can do something similar to Graves or Miss Fortune and apply small amount of extra damage for those hit by multiple arrows (again, like +5% damage for each additional arrow). The other option I see is to keep the base frost shot slow, add a little more base damage to make it a poke ability, and add a stacking slow for getting hit by more than one arrow. You talk about a utility ADC, and her thing is slows. By having bonus slow for additional volley arrows taken could provide enough consequences for taking and blocking the volley, but not enough to shut the tank/support/melee champ down on her own. I like her new Q: Ranger's Focus. It is very fun and satisfying to use and build up. I like that it gives a speed boost, and I enjoy the added rapid shot animation. The stack system is nice on it, BUT I feel like a lot of potential on it is being missed. I don't like that this ability give additional slow beyond frost shot. I don't like that the bonus lasts for 4 seconds. The added attack speed and flurry shots give her a big enough bonus to damage on its own, and the added slow completely shuts down anyone try to escape this bonus. As I said above, I would much rather see a higher slow on the volley than the Q. To me, attack speed abilities are supposed to be killing blows, not utility. You use them upon hitting a fight or to close a kill. The four seconds of flurry shot is too long in my opinion. When you build up Phantom Dancer and Statik Shiv, you have enough attack speed and crit (which is more damage due to her passive) to have about 12 flurry attacks that do easily 160+ damage each. I would rather see something like Sivir or Jayce where she gets attack speed and flurry for the next x shots, and the buff only lasts 4 seconds. I feel that it would be more intuitive to make the amount of shots you get depend on the stacks of Focus she has. If this seems unreasonable or too much of a nerf, I think having attack speed scale with the amount of Focus consumed. There is no difference between consuming 1 Focus or consuming 4. 5 Focus is the only difference and it feels like I might as well go for 1 or 5. Any stacks more than 1 and less than 5 seems like a waste of the cooldown for the next time the ability can be used. It was very easy to attack once, Q for the 20% attack speed to build up to 5 Focus quickly and then wait for the next Q. To me, if you are going to give stacks, I would like to see them be used. The rest of the kit is very well put together. The crit on the Frost Shot is very cool. Leaving the ult the same is nice. The Hawk shot feels a bit more useful. Edit: I was also able to solo dragon with a vampiric scepter, static shiv, and half way to a phantom dancer just by using her Q.
Hi FishHeads, Thanks for the effort you put into your post. I put in a change to Volley yesterday that I hope begins to address it feeling lackluster. Relative to Live, it now has the same damage at all ranks, a shorter cooldown at all but the last rank, and a lower Mana Cost. As for Ranger's Focus, there may be some room for adjustment, but I'm not sure I'm going to pull the trigger on any changes just yet. Thanks!
Does ie passive still apply?
Yes, IE still increases your Critical Damage by 50%
Overall this seems to be a very well done change and I love the fact that the ability to proc Runaan's Huricane with every flurry shot was added, as even if is not necessarily that effective to use it promotes fun and interesting off-builds. Regarding the lack of on-hit effects on RH projectiles past the first pair, I can see how this would be broken for most effects but I have a suggestion/request for an exception to be made for Frozen Mallet as Ashe's passive slow is applied to all RM projectiles and it would make sense and not be in any way overpowered to allow FH slows to apply as well. This is something that would have little impact on balance as it is only a minor slow increase and is not worth building for most players as it sacrifices damage for little gains but I think it would be fun to have as an option for a suppression/support-ish build, even if is basically never used outside of custom games and the odd support Ashe.
Interesting idea. I'll think about it.
new
Is it possible to have Volley's release faster? it really takes too much after clicking W
It is possible, I suppose. It's the same as Live, but maybe there's some room for it to be lower, or go down over time or something.
Thank you Riot for this change on my favourite champion! :D I was waiting it for so long! I published some suggestion on ashe changes a pair of time and your job also better then mine, i must admit it (lol) I love her new mechanic with crits! I hate the possibility of a huge damage followed by simple aa, but in this way this solution about crits is so cool! I have few question and an opinion. All about her new Q (soo cooool!!! XD): how lifesteal work when ashe use Q and 5 stacks? Because if lifesteal work only on the first hit of each flurry she have 1/4 of the lifesteal instead of her aa without 5 stacks Q. And this is very very bad. If her mates use some sort of slow on enemies, like {{champion:41}} passive, {{champion:20}} slows or {{item:3116}} , will ashe crit from the first aa? And now my opinion on stacks decay: i think that could be cool if her stack decay 2 at time but with a dutarion of 3 seconds instead of 4. a way like Jinx Q as. From {{champion:22}} and me, thank you very much Riot! This can turn ashe in a more dynamic pick in the rift :D
Her crits will only trigger from her own passive, so they won't work with slows applied by other champions. Decaying stacks on her Q may make sense. A few people have suggested it now, so it's something I'm spinning on.
The more I look at this the more I think it changes Ashe's identity too much. The changes to volley and the new Q switch her skill order. Now you leave volley at rank 1 instead of ranking it first. That completely changes her playstyle because Volley was traditionally her main ability that let her kinda play around a certain range and try to control the terms of engagement. Now because the level up incentives and general effectiveness of Volley have been reduced, we won't be leveling it first anymore so we'll be working with a longer CD, less dmg, and less reliability. Now of course her Q is strong but it makes her strong at things she wasn't strong at before. This fundamentally changes her playstyle and identity. Her all-in is much stronger over a 4 second window even though her initial burst is reduced. I don't think it's such a bad thing to spread her burst to that 4 second window, but if you have to gut Volley in order to do it, you are actually changing everything about how she plays.
It's not intended that Volley is gutted from these changes, but feedback suggested it was a little weak, so I buffed its base damage back up to Live values and reduced the AS on Q at later ranks. I'm not sure I'm convinced that Q max is definitively better than W max, but it should be less so following the above changes. Either way, I'll keep an eye out for this. Thanks!
One thing I'm wondering: isn't Ashe supposed to be the "entry-level" ADC, ie the champ that new LoL players should pick when they want to learn how to play ADC? If so, don't these changes (especially the stack mechanic and the change to the way crit works) make her less suited for the "pick this champ to learn the basics" role?
A lot of internal studies have actually shown that Varus has been the best entry level ADC for quite some time now. As for Ashe, I'm not sure these changes dramatically alter her accessibility to newer players, since toggle spells tend to be somewhat unintuitive for players new to the genre.
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